Why the lack of competition?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by nintyplayer, Oct 2, 2014.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    what it teaches you is how to make what you do work under pressure, with an opponent not simply standing their allowing you to wrist lock them but activally looking to hit you, hold you down, hurt you
    And everyone’s training is rule based otherwise we would all be killing each other in training, what it comes down to is what is better for you and what produces better results: more rules (protective equipment etc) and harder pressure or less pressure and supposedly less rules (I say supposedly because I find those types of clubs more restrictive in nature because they don’t allow you to actually make contact with power or really resist what your opponent is doing, I ironically find it more complaint in nature)
    And as for what works better for self defense well there are a few videos floating around of BJJ, Judo and boxing guys doing ok in bad situations, not so many of aikido, tai chi et al
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, train smart.

    There's a lot to be said for sparring slow too. Slow but full power is interesting :)
     
  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Somewhere on the "good aikido thread" it has a Japanese title. They were wearing those clear visors and punching each other in the face then going for locks. Looked alright. I think Dean can find it, I couldn't though :/
     
  4. HappyAiki

    HappyAiki Valued Member

    I agree. As you say too much hard sparring can be counter productive. I can ask if I can film the training but I don't know if they would be keen on that. Best way would be for you to come and watch I suppose.

    EDIT: We don't do as of yet nothing like you describe. Might be interesting to do it once in a while. We use no protections but the black belts are supposed to punch eachother if they let their guard down.

    Icefield, I can tell you now that after being unbalanced it is very hard to strike back and what aikido aims to do is unbalance you. The black belts train really fast. I was surprised that no injury came from a strong defense at one point. The instructor unbalanced hit and twisted the arm of the guy playing uke really fast and hard. He knew what was coming but still, had he done that to me I would have my arm broken in several places. Slow and steady was enough to make me jump around a bit.

    After in free training they Slowed down a bit but still using a lot of power. What I feel they lacked was combos and maybe some quick jabs. I will be sure to bring it to the table once I am more comfortable with it. :)

    I was looking for some hard aikido and I must say I found it. As I said in my introduction, I did shotokan and I know how to throw a balanced punch. They could still unbalance me. It was fun :)

    The movements have a lot of biomechanics to them. It is not a dojo where you see people flying around and I was criticized for doing too wide a movement at some point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  5. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    Nah, if I had the time and inclination I'd probably join in order to figure things out and make them work. As of now my efforts are concentrated on figuring out a different art.

    Creating is way more fulfilling than consuming.

    IMO I disagree it about being a red herring and specialization being the culprit.

    It's more of a case of inbreeding and self-enforced isolation.

    Question! How do you practice having good defence?
    Answer: by practicing it against a good attack.
    Question! How do you practice a good attack?
    Answer: by polishing it against a good defense.
    Question! How do you errrr......

    It's a circular argument. As a guest instructor from the scout rangers told me "They (the MILF) learn, we learn. Just pray that our learning doesn't cost us lives". Outside influences shape,mold, hone and forge.

    Now question! In modern aikido, are there external influences today that provides incentive to ADAPT? More importantly: do they REALLY want to adapt? Or are they content with being a "sterile" society (stuck in a point in time) just like in some cases of koryu?

    Remember the case of the dodo in Mauritius: ages of nearly non-existent external influences rendered it UNABLE to adapt.

    One of the things that make the majority of koryu somewhat connected to "reality" is the overwhelming presence of force multipliers (aka weapons) in their art. Even with their built-in safeguards, one wrong move can create a fatality. And from what I've witnessed, they're more complex and dangerous than aikiken and aikijo; and weapons form the bulk of their system. Not so much in the case of aikido.

    Back when practitioners cross-trained in aikibudo, they already had a built-in system of (personally and intuitively)known effective attacks. As such when they 'ping' with their fellow cross-practitioners, they knew whether their attack ability is still up to par or not. Today? Not so much. Majority of the aikido cross-trainers I know are also in BJJ. And I've never seen good aiki tachiwaza from them, especially when against striking which is the most common aikido demo propagated. On the ground they are good though.

    1. How good is your attacker?
    2. When and where will the attacker strike?

    US forces in afghanistan are way hell better than their opposition when it come to training. They also knew that to be there is to be attacked. The only murky thing for them is WHEN and WHERE are they going to be attacked. Yet they still incurred casualties against third-world militants.

    In SD one does not know the when and where, they might not even know the if. If one knows the if (you are in sparring/competition), the when (right now, the guy's moving towards you) and the where (on the mats, you facing him and vice versa) and still get creamed, how much more if these factors are very skewed against you?


    Why pay insurance, that if accumulated over the years, costs more than what you will really spend on your own?
     
  6. zombiekicker

    zombiekicker bagpuss

    yeah i found all the fancy lock etc i got taught whils doing ninjutsu just dont work againt an aggressive opponent LARPing fo sho:evil:
     
  7. zombiekicker

    zombiekicker bagpuss

    whats the whizzer? im intrigued
     
  8. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    wrestling name for an overhook, as opposed to underhook.

    more joint manipulation:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    [​IMG]

    You can also yourube "wrestling whizzer" and lots of stuff comes up.
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    See and there's the reason I'll go for BJJ over wrestling every time, I just don't think I could carry the Lycra look off and I'm in a Hakama most the time! :D
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I figured some would disagree and some agree with points I made about specialization and how competition is a red herring. I figured it was a different approach to address the issues.

    The more boring and standard debate is that competition is just one factor in martial arts. The key is in the preparation and experience gained through training and other means. It is not a circular argument to say:

    1) Participating in competition is a good means to help gain experience against a resisting/countering opponent and to test yourself and your abilities out under pressure.

    2) Having a mindset obsessed with competition can lead to preparation in some very unrealistic (outside of a limited rule set) practices. Some refer this as a sport mindset, although it isn't sport that is the issue, it is the practice of abusing the rules to get something to work. It would not be as much of an issue if what was practiced was fundamentally sound and just happened to conform to the intent of the rules.

    3) Competition exposes where fundamentals are lacking or weak. If these areas are not fixed (e.g. good fundamentals developed), then competition leads to bad habits that can carry over to other areas of training and real world situations.

    In Aikido, #1 above is not debated as true. #2 is over used as an excuse to not have competition. #3 is what is lacking in many schools... and only cross-training can really help in these situations.

    IME.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  12. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    So in your opinion, what is it exactly Aikido is specialising in?
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Would you believe Aikido specializes in Aiki :love:

    Okay, that is like saying Judo specializes in Ju, which really doesn't provide any details.

    Let me elaborate. Let's just pretend that after years of violence, a warrior has come to find that the path of Aiki is the better way. He develops this belief into a budo based on Aiki as the principle of non-resistance.

    He has now taken his years of training and specialized on a path in Aiki. And he is not alone in his belief. It was widely understood that Aiki (non-resistance) was superior to unilateral force (Go) and to bilateral force (Ju) among those proficient in combat.

    Okay, in my example above, let's look at the PROGRESSION of this fictional warrior. The warrior started with the use of unilateral force (Go) to force his might/will on others. At some point, to survive, he learned that it is not always best to meet force on force, so he developed the bend-don't-break of bilateral force (Ju). Becoming more notable, he found that the violence never stops... young challengers are lined up in all towns to try to make a name for themselves. Rather than kill all of them, he finds that when he clearly shows his superiority by effortlessly defeating them... because these young challengers are so easily dispatched, he does not have to kill them... he gives them the choice to live or die... most choose to live and leave with no intention to ever challenge him again. This highest level of non-resistance (Aiki) is regarded as superior.

    Note that the warrior knows when to use Go, Ju, and/or Aiki. He has the ability to do all, but prefers to perfect Aiki so the need to use others is lessened.

    Iron is full of impurities that weaken it; through the forging fire, it becomes steel and is transformed into a razor-sharp sword. Human beings develop in the same fashion.

    I included the quote above because that is the path to Aiki. How many Aikidoka these days follow this path... how many are actually going through the forging fire? How many understand when to use Go and Ju? When to use Aiki?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    That's a bit of a fancy way of putting it, but I agree. A boxer with three months of aikido has a better chance of using aikido then a 20 year aiki-bunny.
     
  15. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    That's an interesting reply. And it might even be true if it weren't for the fact Aiki was taught to O Sensei by Takeda Sōkaku. Who, by all accounts I've read, had no problem dispatching challengers.
     
  16. HappyAiki

    HappyAiki Valued Member

    Aikido is a fancy martial art :)
    And if by aiki-bunnies you mean thise guys who fly around for nothing, I agree. Though anyone who does not fall for the old "here, grab my wrist!" Ploy has a huge advantage.

    I don't think one excludes the other. He is talking about no resistance in a combat way as in not resisting the attacks and flow with them. For me what caused the first impression on aikido was the sense of timing and distance that the people I'm training with have. So we can say they have very good flow.

    Some of them came from other martial arts (same as me) and from what I've been reading (and from rebel's post) it seems to be a huge help.
     
  17. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I like you 0.o
     
  18. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Non-resistance is great. The rest if the storey. Giving challengers the choice of living or dying. Nothing to do with anything. Wrapping up martial arts principals in storeys with all sorts of appendages creates confusion and dilutes the actual point of what you're trying to say.

    The appendages make Aiki sound rather pacifist. And it's not. It's neither passive nor aggressive. That's the character or the practitioner.
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I would say you might be confusing the philosophy of non-resistance with the practical application.

    Philosophy = "pacifist"

    Application = "I'm getting too old for this poop. I need to find a better way. I need to cut through the enemy's intention to attack."

    The philosophy can be adopted by anyone. Even the "aiki-bunnies".

    The application can only really come from someone who has gone through the forging fire and come to the realization that there has to be a better way. They do not adopt a philosophy from the start, they form their philosophy from hard and sincere training/real life experience.


    Well okay, you do understand the difference between philosophy and application. I stand corrected on that.

    In the story, the choice of living or dieing is at the heart of "cutting through the enemy's intention to attack". Non-resistance is like a void... now this will sound a bit flowery... but the void is to have the enemy fight themselves, not you.

    If the enemy chooses to commit suicide by continuing to attack, then they are dispatched. The skills of Go and Ju are still prevalent when needed.
     
  20. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Well I'm not sure we're 100% on the same page yet. But since you mention the forging fire and the differences between philosophy and application. Then I agree with most people here that most Aikidoka are not experiencing the fire.

    There's little to no competition in Aikido because it's exponents are simply not interested. They'd rather wrap themselves up in the wisdom of a received philosophy they will never fully understand because they're young and inexperienced. But train as though they're pushing up daises.

    If what you're saying about aiki is true. Then it would be far better for Aikido as a martial art if it's exponents had prior martial arts experience before taking up Aikido or at the very least cross-trained while studying Aikido.
     

Share This Page