Alive self defence training with out sparring?

[taekwonguy]

Hi guys I need your advice,

right I've got an email from a JKD guy, I've looked everywhere and this is the only guy I can find, he doesnt really have any information on his website so I emailed him and I would like to know what you guys think, I asked about where it was, his lineage, do they do full contact sparring, grappling etc

here is his site: www.bathjkd.co.uk

and here are two short compilations of his training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xhf...Default%2Easpx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB-Ex...elated&search=

and this is what I got:

'At the Bath JKD school I teach original JKD. It was conceived STRICTLY for street combat and self-defence, nothing else! It’s not a sport, it’s not a game, and it’s about getting the job done as QUICK as possible! with the least amount of effort! There is no jumping from one art to another, what ever you want to call it! There’s no grappling, wrestling rolling round on the ground! That’s the last place you want to be. Remember Bruce said as human beings we have more chance of survival upright on two feet! No sport sparring is practiced since actual street combat is not similar in any way shape or form to sport / tournament SPARRING! Different MIND SET! Different TRAINING METHODS! I teach at Percy community centre Bath. I have new beginners classes starting Sunday Sept 9th my new website will be up and running shortly, this date will be placed on it, then I will have a definite time more than likely it will be in the morning. Classes run for an hour and a half, email me when it appears on my new site then I will give you all the relevant info then! Concerning monthly fees & annual membership then we can go from there. Fully qualified JKD Instructor under T Carruthers! Left him back in 2002 due to personal reasons. I am the chief Instructor at the Bathjkd School. And the Bath JKD school is not affiliated with any other organization or body! My martial arts journey started way back in 1974. Whether you decide to train at my school or not is up to you, but the majority of stuff they are calling JKD NOWADAYS IS A JOKE! And the hardest thing to find is an Instructor that can point you in the right direction!

Hope this Helps

Regards'


I was rather confused, the clips on his website look very alive though it appears that the pupils are not resisting, isn't full contact sparring what Bruce Lee wanted? How can they be tested? I was also confused about him saying there was no grappling as I know for certain Bruce had a few stand up techniques and grappling, so I asked about these two things in my reply. I also asked if I would be able to attend a normal session as I had 7 years of previous martial art experience! I also tried to sound as passionate about martial arts as I am so he would take me seriously!

Here's his reply:

'No Sparring! You want to get all that, in and out sh** out of your head! My students ARE! In Realistic, Alive, Combative Situations that would occur in the street! With protective gear on! That’s the difference in my school and other so called JKD schools! You say you have done many hours research on JKD and know quite a bit in terms with principles etc. You say you have read extensively on Bruce Lee himself and his art! Which is fair enough don’t believe every thing you read! I have come across many people in the past that make that claim some have even done JKD or what they thought was JKD for years only to realise that all the time and money they spent was a complete waste of time! Some times what I say is not what people want to hear but never mind! To get the right info you need to go to the right source! I have set times when people start, next class will be in Sept!



Regards'


The reason I haven't posted this in the Discussions and Schools and Teachers forum is because I want to ask you guys both; what do you think? Because I don't have any idea what to think of this school!

Also do any of you guys train in an Alive and realistic manner without full contact sparring?????? How is it possible?????/

Thanks a lot!

[Llamageddon]

The guy's very defensive, isn't he?! MY ART IS BEST! BELIEVE IT! I'd be weary

[jwt]

I had a look at the first video. What I do is pretty similar except:
1. My guys wear a lot more padding.
2. My guys don't just stand there to be hit - they are actively trying to take down the other person/persons.
3. Everyone makes a lot more contact.

Pretty big caveats I know.

Knowing that I am going to get flamed for saying this, sparring is good, teaches you a lot of things, but it is not essential for good street defence training. Decent larping is much better. The reason for this is simple, through larping you can set a bad guy to be a realistic bad guy - you can have the psychological pressure of the pre-fight pushes and shoves, shouting and insults. You can have the guy restricting himself only to the moves that real people make in real fights. You can have people simulating pain so that you have to judge when to stop or not. There can also be a level of devil may care aggression that you wouldn't see from a controlled and calculating opponent in sparring. These factors change the dynamic - it changes your performance. You have to make a decision - is this something I can talk myself out of - am I going to fight - how much force should I use etc....

Do you think that Police train for riots with sparring? No, they go into a hanger with fake buildings in full riot gear with a crowd of larping bad guys who rush them, thrw bricks, shout insults at them and put them under psychological pressure. They have to practice making charges at this crowd, singlling out ringleaders and trying to extract them. They have to walk through petrol bombs. Ultimately, if this is what the people who have to deal with street violence on a regular basis are doing - why isn't anyone who claims to be teaching self protection?

That aside, I'm very surprised to hear of a JKD instructor who isn't doing any sparring.

[medi]

urg, my head hurts now.

I was rather confused, the clips on his website look very alive though it appears that the pupils are not resisting, isn't full contact sparring what Bruce Lee wanted?

Indeed, he was adamant about it. He was also adamant about combat efficiency being "anything that scores."

which together makes this rather confusing:

Remember Bruce said as human beings we have more chance of survival upright on two feet!

Note how Bruce Lee quotes become gospel when it's something this instructor approves of.

Bruce also said an attacker with a knife was actually at a disadvantage... lol.

Forgive me if I don't take the specifics of his combat philosophy as absolute truth.

[taekwonguy]

I've read where Bruce says a man with a club is at a disadvantage for numerous reasons, but I've never heard of a knife!

[taekwonguy]

I found this on Tommy Carruthers Website, I know he is an excellent martial artist and he certified this guy himself:

'At the new school, students are taught how to defend themselves against single opponents, multiple opponents and opponents with weapons. Tommy’s preferred method of teaching is to set up reconstructions of confrontational situations and methodically train his students how best to defend themselves. To make the scenarios as realistic as possible, the students wear protective armour and are trained to “fight not spar”. One example of such a scenario may be a group of three people surrounding a victim and closing in. Another scenario may involve an opponent with a knife hidden up his sleeve. All of the scenarios are designed to recreate the kind of fear, unpredictability and explosiveness of a real life confrontation.'

The only difference I see is that the people do not seem to be resisting

[taekwonguy]

as long as I can actually test what I am learning then that's fine as long as it simulates REAL combat.

actually the only other thing is grappling, he says no grappling whatsover when I asked about BJJ but I know for a fact Bruce Lee had a few techniques such as 3 types of take downs, a spinal lock, reverse and normal wrist lock, armpirt arm lock, lying cross arm lock, hook throws and foot sweeps, is that considered grappling? It is right??? He says he teaches exactly what Bruce does on his site!

[Moosey]

Originally Posted by taekwonguy

as long as I can actually test what I am learning then that's fine as long as it simulates REAL combat.

actually the only other thing is grappling, he says no grappling whatsover when I asked about BJJ but I know for a fact Bruce Lee had a few techniques such as 3 types of take downs, a spinal lock, reverse and normal wrist lock, armpirt arm lock, lying cross arm lock, hook throws and foot sweeps, is that considered grappling? It is right??? He says he teaches exactly what Bruce does on his site!

It looks like he's being honest about what he teaches. If he doesn't want to teach grappling, fair play to him, he's told you in advance. If that bothers you a lot, don't train with him.

[taekwonguy]

But is that real JKD?

[BigBoss]

5 things, firstly those videos show no alive training.

Secondly this guys seems like your standard "I'm to deadly to spar" fool, stay away.

Thirdly, Bruce was a big advocate of sparring, just read 'a tao of jeet kune do'

Fourthly, Bruce was a big fan of Judo and grappling was part of what he taurt and practiced.

Fifthly , ALIVENESS DOES NOT MEAN CONTINUOUS FULL CONTACT SPARRING. Of course sparring should be an integral part of any school, but its not the only thing, how could you learn anything by just sparring, plus who says it has to be full contact!? The fact that aliveness is discussed so much around this place yet some people still seem to be completely ignorant to what it actually is amazes me! I have been thinking about writing an FAQ on it and I swear I am gonna do it soon as it is clearly need cos instead of debating it we wast tens of posts just explaining what it is.

Until then watch this video (this isn't the video that everyone else has posted 100 times, this explains it more in depth) http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=matt+thornton

[taekwonguy]

he didn't say he was deadly just that sport sparring was unrealistic!

[Moosey]

Originally Posted by taekwonguy

But is that real JKD?

It's what he's offering. You either want that, or you don't. Don't let whether it's "real" put you off if you think it looks like good stuff!

[cloudz]

Yea, to what BB said.. This seems a bit iffy.

[medi]

Originally Posted by taekwonguy

You say you have read extensively on Bruce Lee himself and his art! Which is fair enough don’t believe every thing you read!

I'm kinda curious what this guy's JKD 'lineage' is exactly, which has given him the hotline to what Bruce was 'really' about...

[BigBoss]

Originally Posted by taekwonguy

he didn't say he was deadly just that sport sparring was unrealistic!

So why can't he spar in a realistic way (whatever he thinks that is)? The answer you will get is "cos we practice groin strikes and eye pokes etc. so if we sparred like that people would end up seriously injured" (Its to deadly).