Bujinkan, Ninjutsu and Budo (Split from: To pass, or not to pass?)

[Lord Spooky]

Originally Posted by CandyCaneShinai

You know, there really is no point in discussing these kinds of things when there are 6 or 7 different martial arts being represented.
Hatsumi Senseis' Bujinkan, which is the only real school of ninjutsu in the world, has a very different philosophy from other MA about what is and what is not budo, what is and what is not important ,etc...

For example, in the Bujinkan, a "perfected technique" is considered a weakness. If you can understand that, then you may be on the road to budo.

Enjoy your watermelons and don't squeeze the bees.

Couple of questions CCS if you don't mind?

Do you see the Bujinkan as being a school of Ninjutsu? Are we learning Ninjutsu?

With reference to being the only school of Ninjutsu in the world. Where, in your opinion, do the various Koryu that have Ninjutsu in their curriculum come into this?

How do you feel Budo as taught in the Bujinakn differs to other arts?

Cheers

[kouryuu]

In a little singing voice "spooky's on the warpath, spooky's on the warpath"

[Lord Spooky]

Originally Posted by kouryuu

In a little singing voice "spooky's on the warpath, spooky's on the warpath"

....er yeah that's right that's why I have makeup on it's my war paint!....er yeah war paint.

shush phew thanks Norm don't tell anyone.

[CandyCaneShinai]

Do you see the Bujinkan as being a school of Ninjutsu?

absolutely.
I dont think ive ever been to a hombu class where that word wasnt used by Soke or Nagato Sensei.

Are we learning Ninjutsu?
If you are in the Bujinkan, then yes. Yes, 3 schools of 9 are in name ninjutsu.
the philosophy of ninjutsu has totally converted the other 6, however.
Within the Bujinkan, all 9 are ninjutsu schools, now. They are all studied with the ninjutsu feeling, and feeling is everything.

With reference to being the only school of Ninjutsu in the world. Where, in your opinion, do the various Koryu that have Ninjutsu in their curriculum come into this?

I don't see how these two things are related. Chocolate ice cream and strawberry ice cream with a piece of chocolate in the bottom of the cup: are these to be compared squarely?


How do you feel Budo as taught in the Bujinkan differs to other arts?

Bujinkan Budo is a living thing. The thing you have to understand is that Budo is not passed down in a densho. It is passed down Soke to Soke, through touch.
Primarily, the main difference is purpose, nature. Bujinkan Budo never succombed to, as Ed Lomax put it, "the death of peace." Ninjutsu has survived until today because it is an adaptive organism, not a rigid form.
Other schools have forms and seek to perfect the forms. The Bujinkan has forms and the forms serve to illuminate the feeling of formlessness.
That is why, every time I have been asked by Japanese students of other budo schools to demonstrate or train with them, they are amazed. Not at my skill*, but at the lack of strength, the lack of form, and the fact that they are, as they put it, "afraid to move."

The samurai (other koryu schools you referred to) only studied the forms of their arts during the Edo period. These were not warriors, they were armed mid-level managers.



* i am not particularly skillful.

[kouryuu]

Originally Posted by Lord Spooky

....er yeah that's right that's why I have makeup on it's my war paint!....er yeah war paint.

shush phew thanks Norm don't tell anyone.

Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy

[Fusen]

''The samurai (other koryu schools you referred to) only studied the forms of their arts during the Edo period. These were not warriors, they were armed mid-level managers.''

I think that this statement infers that Kata wasnt the main souce of teaching in the Sengoku Jidai, All other Koryu school that I have seen, however maintain that it was.
So there is a good chance that Kata was one of the main methods used to teach the principles of heiho.

[garth]

Candy Cane Shinai posted

Hatsumi Senseis' Bujinkan, which is the only real school of ninjutsu in the world,

When I read this i didn't know if you actually believed that, or whether you had written it to start a thread war. I'm pretty sure that other organisations i.e the X Kans are teaching real Ninjutsu too.

Do you see the Bujinkan as being a school of Ninjutsu?

absolutely.
I dont think ive ever been to a hombu class where that word wasnt used by Soke or Nagato Sensei.

Yes interesting this isn't it. Although it is now called Budo Taijutsu it is still really Ninjutsu, something that I have always stated. As CCS continues

Yes, 3 schools of 9 are in name ninjutsu.
the philosophy of ninjutsu has totally converted the other 6, however.
Within the Bujinkan, all 9 are ninjutsu schools, now. They are all studied with the ninjutsu feeling, and feeling is everything.

Couln't agree more. We have had all these discussion about whether schools such as Gyokko Ryu are Ninjutsu, or not. But this weekend I watched the Gyokko Ryu Tai Kai 2001 in Washington, where Hatsumi Sensei taught the Joryaku No Maki of the Gyoko Ryu, and the number of times he said something like "When you are wearing Shuko" or "When you are wearing Ashiko" or "using Metsubushi."

Gary Arthur

[Lord Spooky]

Right this could be another good discussion so I've split it form the original thread.

Have fun!

[Lord Spooky]

Originally Posted by Lord Spooky

With reference to being the only school of Ninjutsu in the world. Where, in your opinion, do the various Koryu that have Ninjutsu in their curriculum come into this?

Originally Posted by CandyCaneShinai

I don't see how these two things are related. Chocolate ice cream and strawberry ice cream with a piece of chocolate in the bottom of the cup: are these to be compared squarely?

So following on from this, thanks for indulging me btw, what do you feel real Ninjutsu is and what do you know of the Ninjutsu found in Koryu?

I'm just trying to see how you are coming to the above.

Are you saying the Ninjutsu found in a Ryu such as TSKSR is of a lesser quality to what is in the Bujinkan and if so how have you arrived at this conclusion?

Or are you saying that because it has less Ninjutsu i.e. quantity and as it isn't a pure Ninjutsu Ryu then you can't compare the two?

However isn't Ninjutsu just a component of a Ryu usually, in the same way as Kenjutsu for example. It's a skill set used for a specific purpose.

Isn’t Togakure Ryu limited (quantity wise) in it’s unarmed techniques and doesn’t it use a lot of Wazza from Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu as it’s fighting component?


Or am I off the mark again?

Thanks again

[CandyCaneShinai]

"So following on form this, thanks for indulging me btw, what do you feel real Ninjutsu is .."

Hatsumi Sensei has been trying to explain this for thirty years and very few people have listened. What luck am I going to have? The same people that weren't listening then aren't listening now.
Real ninjutsu, to me, is a way of seeing the world. If you can't come to understand that, then I can't really explain it. Ninjutsu is survival, perseverence. Some people are interested in performing kata perfectly, being strict and in observing various arbitrary rules of etiquette. Thats not ninjutsu. Ninjutsu isn't a form.

"and what do you know of the Ninjutsu found in Koryu?"

I only know what little is offered in the Katori Shinto Ryu, but only secondhand from a few people from different branches of that school. You say ninjutsu to them, they laugh.

"Are you saying the Ninjutsu found in a Ryu such as TSKSR is of a lesser quality to what is in the Bujinkan and if so how have you arrived at this conclusion?"

I said nothing of the kind. I said that The Bujinkan is ninjutsu and other schools are not. Having an element of ninjutsu in your densho does not make you a ninjutsu school. Having all the densho of the Bujinkan and practicing the kata does not make you a ninjutsu school. (That is a common misconception.)

"Or are you saying that because it has less Ninjutsu i.e. quantity and as it isn't a pure Ninjutus Ryu then you can't compare the two? "

I am saying it isn't a ninjutsu school. They do not have the ninjutsu philosophy and are not interested in learning it.


"However isn't Ninjutsu just a component of a Ryu usually, in the same way as Kenjutsu for example. It's a skill set used for a specific purpose. "

Yes, for those koryu it is only a component. There were entire schools of it at one time, however. It's like the Army and the Police. The Army has Military police and the Police have commandoes. Would you argue that the Army and the Police were the same? (in that strict sense)


"Isn’t Togakure Ryu limited (quantity wise) in it’s unarmed techniques and doesn’t it use a lot of waza from Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu as it’s fighting component?"

There are three in name ninpo schools in the Bujinkan, all of them share the same philosophy. That philosophy is very, very pervasive and colors every school in the bujinkan to such an extent that I wouldn't call any of them anything other than ninjutsu anymore. I think I said this earlier. Please try to understand how important the philosophy and feeling of ninpo is.
Without the feeling, the philosophy, all you have are waza and weapons which can be found in any school. ( dead )
Again, I haven't said anything that Sensei hasn't said time and time again.

[Lord Spooky]

Cheers for the response.

Originally Posted by CandyCaneShinai

Hatsumi Sensei has been trying to explain this for thirty years and very few people have listened. What luck am I going to have? The same people that weren't listening then aren't listening now.
Real ninjutsu, to me, is a way of seeing the world. If you can't come to understand that, then I can't really explain it. Ninjutsu is survival, perseverence. Some people are interested in performing kata perfectly, being strict and in observing various arbitrary rules of etiquette. Thats not ninjutsu. Ninjutsu isn't a form.

Would you then say that this outlook could be applied by the practioner to most arts?

Is this where we start to see both the difference and interchange of Ninjutsu an Ninpo

Originally Posted by CandyCaneShinai

I said nothing of the kind. I said that The Bujinkan is ninjutsu and other schools are not. Having an element of ninjutsu in your densho does not make you a ninjutsu school. Having all the densho of the Bujinkan and practicing the kata does not make you a ninjutsu school. (That is a common misconception.)

Thanks again. I didn’t think you were saying that but I wanted to be sure.

Originally Posted by CandyCaneShinai

I am saying it isn't a ninjutsu school. They do not have the ninjutsu philosophy and are not interested in learning it.

Would that then mean that those elements within their Ryu are not in fact Ninjutsu? If they do not have that Philosophy behind them?

Originally Posted by CandyCaneShinai

Yes, for those koryu it is only a component. There were entire schools of it at one time, however. It's like the Army and the Police. The Army has Military police and the Police have commandoes. Would you argue that the Army and the Police were the same? (in that strict sense)

These schools that were entirely Ninjutsu do you feel they would of developed from the same need as the components of the other Ryu? Would we have seen this same feeling in them or is it something specific to the Ninjutsu found in the Bujinkan?

Originally Posted by CandyCaneShinai

There are three in name ninpo schools in the bujinkan, all of them share the same philosophy. That philosophy is very, very pervasive and colors every school in the bujinkan to such an extent that I wouldn't call any of them anything other than ninjutsu anymore. I think I said this earlier. Please try to understand how important the phiosophy and feeling of ninpo is.
Without the feeling, the philosophy, all you have are waza and weapons which can be found in any school. ( dead )

I’ve heard it said that each Koryu has it’s own feeling which makes it unique and that without it the Kata are merely dead movements. I find it interesting that the same thing is being said here. Maybe in all Ryu it is the feeling that is important and without it the Kata just become a method of recording and transmission and the Ryu ceases to be the Ryu.

[elftengu]

CCS's posts, if they are not a giant red watermelon-eating herring, give quite a lot to think about.

I suppose that if we were having this conversation 500 years ago, the question might be as follows:

Which would be more likely? A ninja assimilating and using 'samurai' arts or a samurai assimilating and using 'ninja' arts?

Notwithstanding the 'some samurai were ninja and vice versa' fact. I'm talking about the Tsunetomo-esque bushido hardline samurai of the middle to upper classes.

There's no need for an answer really is there?

Actually it's just as valid today but I thought I'd leave the bit about 500 years ago in place.

[Lord Spooky]

Originally Posted by elftengu

CCS's posts, if they are not a giant red watermelon-eating herring, give quite a lot to think about.

Hence all my questions

[CandyCaneShinai]

"Would you then say that this outlook could be applied by the practioner to most arts?"

Absolutely. Remember though, that the ninjutsu/ninpo philosophy/feeling is NOT written down anywhere and cannot be learned in the traditional academic sense. It is transmitted, in person, from Soke to you. Once you catch it, you'll see it in Sokes' writings, in his art, in everything he does. You won't learn it by simply reading his books and looking at his art. You have to receive the transmission in person.


"Is this where we start to see both the difference and interchange of Ninjutsu and Ninpo?"

I don't know what difference exists between those two words and I don't care. I dont mean to be flippant, it's just not important, really. I'd forget about it if I were you. Not worth bothering..Either word is good.


"Would that then mean that those elements within their Ryu are not in fact Ninjutsu? If they do not have that Philosophy behind them?"

Again, it may be useful to consider Military police and regular police. Cops use M-16s for special purposes. Can we say they arent military weapons? Yes of course they are. Are cops soldiers ? Heck no.

There were, at one time, whole schools of ninjutsu. These were fully-flowered budo schools that were used by and for ninja. they did some of the same things and used some of the same tools as other schools, but the philosophy and purpose was different.


"These schools that were entirely Ninjutsu, do you feel they would of developed from the same need as the components of the other Ryu? Would we have seen this same feeling in them or is it something specific to the Ninjutsu found in the Bujinkan?"

All of the ninjutsu schools probably had this same feeling. I am not God, so I cant really say for certain. I dont know. A few techniques can be called ninjutsu. The philosophy of an entire school of ninjutsu is something else.

"I’ve heard it said that each Koryu has it’s own feeling which makes it unique and that without it the Kata are merely dead movements. I find it interesting that the same thing is being said here. Maybe in all Ryu it is the feeling that is important and without it the Kata just become a method of recording and transmission and the Ryu ceases to be the Ryu."


I am sure that has been said. I have watched many schools here in Japan demonstrate and they all had rigid forms. Perhaps they do all have these similar qualities, I am sure they do, but let us say that the Bujinkan is very, very different from the rest. The reason? The ninjutsu feeling/philosophy.

You can take Bujinkan waza, strip out the feeling and perform it rigidly. It is no longer ninjutsu. I see that all the time, even amongst Bujinkan people who don't know any better.

[Senban]

So CCS, would it be a fair comment to say that whilst the Bujinkan Dojo's root traditions would have originally had their own unique flavours, what is being taught now are the techniques of the schools but done with the flavour of ninpo?

But the fact remains that there are people and organisations who are teaching genuine ninjutsu in the sense of the actual techniques. Whether those techniques are being taught and practiced with the flavour of ninpo is another matter of course.

CCS's analogy of the military and the police is a good one. The military groups use the tools within their own paradigm, the police use those same tools within their different paradigm. But the tools remain largely the same nonetheless. Only the context and underlying philosophy changes.