To pass, or not to pass?

[Devil Hanzo]

I noticed reading the previous thread "Your Current Training" that several people mentioned how some of their basics were crap and they were working on those, like rolls and such.

I'm assuming, if you're past mukyu, your rolls should be pristine? I know to pass my mukyu test, I had to be able to perform several rolls, all perfectly aligned while maintaining eye contact and must be completely smooth and balanced and rising into kamae without once losing eye contact, all against a shinai cut from daijodan. If I rolled off the line, or lost eye contact, it was a failure. In order to pass, there could be no mistakes. In passing the test, you know for certain that you were near perfect in all the required material.

I know a lot of people are of the mindset that "you can always improve", but I think if you know how to roll, you know how to roll. That's it. You can always improve on applying the things you've learned under pressure and against varying circumstances of course, but I can't see it taking years of dedicated study to master kaiten.

I don't know. I remember in an old school of mine seeing people who couldn't keep their back straight or perform a basic roll being promoted through the ranks, and I'm really liking this strict testing I'm working with now. Makes it so no matter what dojo in what state or country you go to, you know if you see someone with the same rank as you, they can do the same things as you, or else they wouldn't have the rank.

How do you guys feel about strict or lenient testing? I've heard some interesting concepts like "growing into one's rank". Any words?

[Banpen Fugyo]

Yeah well I've met shodans that cant do ukemi in the slightest in the bujinkan. "Growing into ones rank" is bullcrap in my opinion. You either deserve it or you don't. I've met way too many people that sucked big monkey balls to think that that term is even remotely a good idea.

In the higher ups, with people that can be trusted, I can see it maybe working. But in the kyus and lower dans... horrible idea. IMO at least. I like structure, so its just my opinion, no offense I hope.

[CandyCaneShinai]

Some people just dont like watermelon. No harm, no foul.

[Banpen Fugyo]

agreed. I dont mean to say the booj is a big waste of time by the way. Im just saying the lack of structure can be a good thing... or a really horrible thing. Search youtube for examples

[Keikai]

Blimey, its been so long since we have had a bujinkan bashing thread, what a refreshing change!!!

[stephenk]

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

I noticed reading the previous thread "Your Current Training" that several people mentioned how some of their basics were crap and they were working on those, like rolls and such.

Many people who are very good tend to see everything in/as their 'basics'. So it can be a bit misleading when people say things like this.

I find as I train longer I find more, rather than less, problems with the way I move. Therefore the number of things I think I can do pretty well to the number of things I can see that I can't do ratio gets smaller over time. This makes me feel rather unskilled even though it's clear that the absolute number of things I can do okay is increasing.

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

I'm assuming, if you're past mukyu, your rolls should be pristine? I know to pass my mukyu test, I had to be able to perform several rolls, all perfectly aligned while maintaining eye contact and must be completely smooth and balanced and rising into kamae without once losing eye contact, all against a shinai cut from daijodan. If I rolled off the line, or lost eye contact, it was a failure.

That's nice that your class has a structure you enjoy and find meaning in.

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

In order to pass, there could be no mistakes. In passing the test, you know for certain that you were near perfect in all the required material.

okay

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

... I'm really liking this strict testing I'm working with now. Makes it so no matter what dojo in what state or country you go to, you know if you see someone with the same rank as you, they can do the same things as you, or else they wouldn't have the rank.

A lot of people love this structure. Different strokes.....

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

How do you guys feel about strict or lenient testing? I've heard some interesting concepts like "growing into one's rank". Any words?

I don't "test", and I don't give kyu grades. By the time someone is ready for shodan I'm pretty confident I know how they move.

[Senban]

Actually, being the person who, in the other thread, considers his Koho Kaiten to be teh sux, I thought I'd take a moment to comment because this has the potential to be an interesting thread if we all refrain from the bashing.

Firstly, I can do Koho Kaiten no problem at all. I learned it properly, just like everyone should. But as time goes on and as our training progresses, we become aware of more and details that we simply weren't aware of before.

So while I have a perfectly serviceable Koho Kaiten available if required, I have recently become aware of some minor details that I hadn't been aware of before. When I started investigating them, I realised that I'd found a whole big mess of stuff that needed to be polished up. For example, I mentioned my transition from standing to ground during Koho Kaiten. I discovered a couple of aspects of the transition that stood out. I refer to these things as "friction". Little things that, if polished out, can create a much smoother and more reliable technique. The hips and knees are the source of much of the friction in this case.

So when I said "my Koho Kaiten is teh sux", you need to think of it in relation to my Koho Kaiten of six months ago, twelve months ago, nineteen years ago. It used to be a good Koho Kaiten, now it needs to be better.

Does that clarify my original comment a little?

[Victoria]

I think he's got a point. I haven't been around long but already I've met people very deserving of their grades, and others that err...aren't. A beginner will look at someone wearing a black belt and assume they at least have a clue about what they're doing, but it's not always the case

You can train somewhere and have your rank handed to you regardless of skill, or you can train somewhere where you actually earn it. That's personal choice I suppose. Those higher up at least should know when they're not deserving..

[The Door]

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

I noticed reading the previous thread "Your Current Training" that several people mentioned how some of their basics were crap and they were working on those, like rolls and such.

I'm assuming, if you're past mukyu, your rolls should be pristine? I know to pass my mukyu test, I had to be able to perform several rolls, all perfectly aligned while maintaining eye contact and must be completely smooth and balanced and rising into kamae without once losing eye contact, all against a shinai cut from daijodan. If I rolled off the line, or lost eye contact, it was a failure. In order to pass, there could be no mistakes. In passing the test, you know for certain that you were near perfect in all the required material.

I know a lot of people are of the mindset that "you can always improve", but I think if you know how to roll, you know how to roll. That's it. You can always improve on applying the things you've learned under pressure and against varying circumstances of course, but I can't see it taking years of dedicated study to master kaiten.

I don't know. I remember in an old school of mine seeing people who couldn't keep their back straight or perform a basic roll being promoted through the ranks, and I'm really liking this strict testing I'm working with now. Makes it so no matter what dojo in what state or country you go to, you know if you see someone with the same rank as you, they can do the same things as you, or else they wouldn't have the rank.

How do you guys feel about strict or lenient testing? I've heard some interesting concepts like "growing into one's rank". Any words?

Several rolls? what is this as a percentage of every roll there is?
Do you consider all rolls as "basics"?

[K0koro]

Bread roll or Sausage that is the question

Sorry guys couldnt resist.

I think the more you work on something the more you think you suck at something, due to wanting to be better all the time.

[The Door]

Originally Posted by K0koro

Bread roll or Sausage that is the question

Sorry guys couldnt resist.

I think the more you work on something the more you think you suck at something, due to wanting to be better all the time.

Dave, thinking about food , never!

[K0koro]

Says the man who definately enjoyed his food in Japan

Been some decent threads over the last couple of days, definately makes a change.

V. quite agree, some are good, some are bad, end of the day its all relative I suppose.

[bencole]

Originally Posted by Devil Hanzo

I'm assuming, if you're past mukyu, your rolls should be pristine? I know to pass my mukyu test, I had to be able to perform several rolls, all perfectly aligned while maintaining eye contact and must be completely smooth and balanced and rising into kamae without once losing eye contact, all against a shinai cut from daijodan. If I rolled off the line, or lost eye contact, it was a failure. In order to pass, there could be no mistakes. In passing the test, you know for certain that you were near perfect in all the required material.

Clearly, your definition of a "perfect roll" differs from others....

Keep going!

-ben

[Moosey]

Originally Posted by Banpen Fugyo

I've met way too many people that sucked big monkey balls

Maybe you need to start socializing in different circles.

[Victoria]

Originally Posted by K0koro

end of the day its all relative I suppose.