tkd and sweeping

[outspokenreflex]

why is it that tkd schools focus so little(in general) on the sweeping and jointlocking part of the system? is this do to the rules in sparring.do you guys/gals think we should change the sparring to include more of the system?

ive seen a good number of really nice looking takedowns, throws, jointlocks, and chokes in my 8 years in tkd so why not in sparring?


mods feel free to delete this thread if there is another like it.

[buck65]

I would love it if there was sweeping in sparring, TKD is in danger of being dominated by the sport aspect and not enough on the reality/self defence side. Was sparring last night and was given out to for using a leg block. For fcks sake.

[mattsylvester]

Plain and simple, most instructors don't know how to sweep, won't teach sweeping because kicks aren't allowed below the belt and because whether you're ITF or WTF, the goal is to remain distinct from Karate (which uses leg sweeps) and Freestyle 'Kickboxing' Light Continuous as that too uses leg sweeps.

The problem is that they then don't teach them for self-defence either.

[Ragnarok2005]

Originally Posted by outspokenreflex

why is it that tkd schools focus so little(in general) on the sweeping and jointlocking part of the system? is this do to the rules in sparring.do you guys/gals think we should change the sparring to include more of the system?

ive seen a good number of really nice looking takedowns, throws, jointlocks, and chokes in my 8 years in tkd so why not in sparring?


mods feel free to delete this thread if there is another like it.

Because (in general) Taekwon-Do, and its instructors suck.

[outspokenreflex]

Originally Posted by mattsylvester

Plain and simple, most instructors don't know how to sweep, won't teach sweeping because kicks aren't allowed below the belt and because whether you're ITF or WTF, the goal is to remain distinct from Karate (which uses leg sweeps) and Freestyle 'Kickboxing' Light Continuous as that too uses leg sweeps.

The problem is that they then don't teach them for self-defence either.

ive noticed that alot of the instructors dont know the sweeps etc. that are a part of the system. a large part of tkd as an art is the self defense yet instructors avoid this part like its the plague and i personally dont understand why.
i think tkd can remain a distinct from karate and still use sweeps etc.the way tkd students move and the way we fight would reamain the almost same i would just like to see more of the system brought into the sparring aspect. what im afraid of is tkd becoming all sport no self defense.

[outspokenreflex]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok2005

Because (in general) Taekwon-Do, and its instructors suck.

i dont know if id have said it that way but yes thats true MOST tkd instructors suck. as far as the art itself if taught and praticed with fighting and not point sparring or "look i can do three useless kicks in the air" type attitude its a good system.

[Nick K]

Have a look at Stuart A's recent video in the TKD video thread to show what can be done.

We're taught sweeps, chokes, takedowns, but we're also have a couple of very good competition fighters, so spend a lot of time on the sports side. Gradings cover self defence including takedowns, finishing people on the floor, etc. Just as well really, as I am a hopeless kicker and my knees hurt a lot.

[outspokenreflex]

Originally Posted by Nick K

Have a look at Stuart A's recent video in the TKD video thread to show what can be done.

We're taught sweeps, chokes, takedowns, but we're also have a couple of very good competition fighters, so spend a lot of time on the sports side. Gradings cover self defence including takedowns, finishing people on the floor, etc. Just as well really, as I am a hopeless kicker and my knees hurt a lot.

yes my instructor has us spar in almost mma rules. but i was speaking in general.there are really great tkd instruors out their but its few and far between. and ive read stuarts book and really enjoyed it even though im no longer a member of the itf.

im also wondering how many people would prefer competing like this.(i would)

[BigBoss]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok2005

Because (in general) Taekwon-Do, and its instructors suck.

Strongly agree! There are the odd few good TKD schools, but when you actually look at what/how thing are taught in the few good schools it often doesn't really resemble TKD at all and the only thing that seems to make them a 'TKD' club is the fact that they do patterns.

[BigBoss]

Also about the bit about sport tkd and self defense that always makes me laugh. In every TKD school I've came across sparring is actually the only totally alive form of training that the school does and as such the only form of training that will actually improve your ability to fight/defend yourself even if it is under very strict rules. People go on about "yeah but we also do locks, throws, sweeps as part of our self defence" which basically means they do it against non-resisting opponents i.e. someone grabs your shirt, you do some sort of lock or take down whilst they stand there and let you and you think "wow thats really effective I don't know why everyone give TKD such a hard time". Training "self defence" techniques against non-resisting oponents wont help you anymore than not training them at all.

I think if TKD started sparring with less strict rules that would be a good start, then drop all this stupid 'self defence' training and start learning to fight effectively against resisting opponents at a clinch range instead (after all if someone grabs you, you are in a clinch range). Then to top it all off throw in some actual grappling trained against resiting opponents, by that I mean taught by someone who knows what they are doing not an instructor who has been on a few "ground fighting" seminars. Then you would have an effective system that teaches you how to effectively fight/defend your self in a real combative encounter at all 3 ranges.

But then would it still be TKD, or just MMA with patterns!?

[outspokenreflex]

Originally Posted by BigBoss

Also about the bit about sport tkd and self defense that always makes me laugh. In every TKD school I've came across sparring is actually the only totally alive form of training that the school does and as such the only form of training that will actually improve your ability to fight/defend yourself even if it is under very strict rules. People go on about "yeah but we also do locks, throws, sweeps as part of our self defence" which basically means they do it against non-resisting opponents i.e. someone grabs your shirt, you do some sort of lock or take down whilst they stand there and let you and you think "wow thats really effective I don't know why everyone give TKD such a hard time". Training "self defence" techniques against non-resisting oponents wont help you anymore than not training them at all.

I think if TKD started sparring with less strict rules that would be a good start, then drop all this stupid 'self defence' training and start learning to fight effectively against resisting opponents at a clinch range instead (after all if someone grabs you, you are in a clinch range). Then to top it all off throw in some actual grappling trained against resiting opponents, by that I mean taught by someone who knows what they are doing not an instructor who has been on a few "ground fighting" seminars. Then you would have an effective system that teaches you how to effectively fight/defend your self in a real combative encounter at all 3 ranges.

But then would it still be TKD, or just MMA with patterns!?

this is what im saying. tkd contains throws jointlocks chokes etc. so why not in sparring? why just do it against someone whos just standing there. and no i dont think adding those things would make it mma with patterns. im saying id like to see ALL aspects of the art in sparring. i am not saying we should go out and learn bjj and boxing and teach them and call it tkd. we spar under semi contact mma rules. but it still looks like tkd. we still do alot of bouncing around and try to kick each other in the head. the difrence is if you miss you get trown down on the ground.

[neryo_tkd]

after reading all these disappointing points from you guys, i can definitely say that i am 100% lucky not to be living in your city because my instructor is really a good one and he does not suck and i was told that i don't suck either

[BigBoss]

Originally Posted by outspokenreflex

we spar under semi contact mma rules.

Well TKD has stand up and with a good instructor I could just about believe that you could be trained to fight clinch to but where did you learn ground? Please don't tell me "its from the patterns its been there all the time".

Do you have any videos of your sparring?

[BigBoss]

Also you say

Originally Posted by outspokenreflex

we spar under semi contact mma rules. but it still looks like tkd. we still do alot of bouncing around and try to kick each other in the head.

My question is who do you think would preform better in MMA rules, someone trained in a MMA kinda way or someone trained in a TKD kinda way (like yourself)? I think its clear to see the answer is a person trained in a MMA kinda way will perform better under MMA rules, which begs the question, if you are going to fight in MMA rules why train in a TKD kinda way and not an MMA kinda way?

[Ragnarok2005]

Originally Posted by outspokenreflex

i dont know if id have but it that way but yes thats true MOST tkd instructors suck. as far as the art itself if taught and praticed with fighting and not point sparring or "look i can do three useless kicks in the air" type attitude its a good system.

You would have said that. You just don't want to sound blunt.

Have a look at Stuart A's recent video in the TKD video thread to show what can be done.

We're taught sweeps, chokes, takedowns, but we're also have a couple of very good competition fighters, so spend a lot of time on the sports side. Gradings cover self defence including takedowns, finishing people on the floor, etc.

So. You do this live? Get on a mat and take people down and hit them while their on the floor?

Or by that do you mean, you do some pre-meditated strangle, or 1-step and then do a takedown on a compliant partner?