The treadmill of never-ending information

[kuoshu]

I originally posted this on the "Fit for Purpose" thread because of all the discussion about the need to train in Japan and constantly keep up with Mr Hatsumi's new teachings or else be left behind. Inflammatory comments removed! Keep it civil or the thread gets locked. -Spooky


Where is all this material coming from that Mr Hatsumi is teaching recently?
This discussion by Marc MacYoung is pretty interesting. (bold emphasis mine)
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

Never ending new information:
In the previous section I made reference to continuous, ongoing information. When you graduate college, the university hands you a diploma, shakes your hand, says "You're now qualified, have a nice life, go out and make yourself some money" and shows you the door.

Your money paid, service rendered, you are on your own. What's more, you don't pay the school any more tuition and your degree can never be revoked. Any professional licensing and certification fees are paid to the state or a state mandated/regulated organization, not to the university. Continuing education to keep up with changes and findings in the field are constant but from sources other than the university.

With cults, however, you are on an endless hamster wheel of new information. The cult is not only the university, but it is the regulating and certifying organization as well as the source of continuing education. It is an organization, incidentally, that has no credibility or accreditation outside itself. Needless to say accountability is definitely missing. As is reliability of information. And that is where the hustle of new information comes in.

You will be barraged with either out-and-out new stuff or new deeper teachings -- usually of things you were already supposed to know -- every few months. Here is were the concept of a fantasy being both complex and sophisticated comes into being. You will get lost in the details of the fantasy. In the name of learning the depths of the system, the information becomes both more focused and -- truth be told -- more trivial. The depths of the system, you learn 5,000 variations of the same technique (which if the move doesn't work in the first place, is a complete waste of time). Nothing new is introduced, it is the same information from the same limited source, just rehashed and repackaged. If something new is introduced, it is carefully filtered and packaged to appear to have been in the system all along. Unfortunately, this filtering often renders it both incomplete and ineffective.

Unlike college, you don't get to graduate. You are on a treadmill of never ending information. The bottom line is you must continue to pay for this new, never ending-- and questionable -- information. And who is to say different? A cult is answerable to no one except itself. There are no outside regulatory or accreditation organizations who can identify this new information as either bogus or rehashed. The only source of information is the cult itself. And to quote an old joke "You know how dem sheep lie"

I'd like to more fully explore a point I mention a few moments ago. It is interesting to note how often new revealed knowledge looks like something else, but dressed up in the system's clothing. As an example, during the grappling craze, we actually encountered a Tae Kwon Do school who claimed to be teaching the ancient and secret grappling aspect of Tae Kwon Do. Dianna who had been in TKD for ten years by that time had never heard of of this hidden aspect of Tae Kwon Do. You'd think after ten years she'd might have even heard a rumor. What was most astounding was how closely this "ancient Korean system" resembled BJJ. (A little while later, the instructor suddenly and mysteriously acquired a ranking in Jujitsu. Taking one look at the degree on the wall Marc` immediately recognized it as a mail-order grappling/video/certification program). Amazingly enough, a ranking in grappling became a black belt requirement for that particular school.

In general the Master picks up a new trick somewhere, tweaks it slightly and feeds it to the rank and file as "advanced" or the "depths" of the system. If you have been around such an organization long enough you will be able to track the changes according to trends in the MA/SD world. You can watch the program change and evolve to meet new marketing expectations. But to the new members "it has always been in the system." But no matter how long its been in the teachings, there will always be something new to learn -- and to pay for.

There is another point of interest about this never-ending cycle of information. You will never surpass the Master; the source of this ever growing, more and more esoteric wisdom . No matter how high up the mountain you go, the Master will always be ahead of you handing down more of his revealed teachings about the system.

The credibility of this new information, is extremely questionable. This is revealed in one simple question: Where'd this new information come from? We ask this because the Master never receives any additional training in his system. He can't without losing status. But how realistic is that? We cannot think of another business where continuing education, seminars, business conferences, workshops and tradeshows are not attended by leaders. They do this to stay abreast with current business trends and developments in their field. So if he isn't going back to his instructor or to outside sources, where is this this new information coming from? Is he making it up? If he is figuring it out, is he field testing it? It's affiliation with the system is questionable. Yet it is being presented as part of the curriculum you must follow to learn "the system."

The usual response is that it was an advanced teaching from his instructor. However, this begs another question: How is that he studied with his Master, for less time than many of his students have been with him, and yet, somehow constantly comes up with new revealed wisdom from that time?

Are we to believe that in five years of study, this mythical grandmaster imparted 30 years of cosmic wisdom, martial arts prowess and 27 levels of secret teachings? How much information can one really impart in such a short time of study? Or is it more feasible that the new master is pirating or making stuff up and attributing it to his teacher?

[stephenk]

Originally Posted by kuoshu

I originally posted this on the "Fit for Purpose" thread because of all the discussion about the need to train in Japan and constantly keep up with Mr Hatsumi's new teachings or else be left behind. Inflammatory comments removed! Keep it civil or the thread gets locked. -Spooky


Where is all this material coming from that Mr Hatsumi is teaching recently?
This discussion by Marc MacYoung is pretty interesting. (bold emphasis mine)
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

This would be relevant if it were the case that you could go see Hatsumi-sensei and learn, perform, and teach what he is currently doing at any point. It is not simply a case of, "I have 'mastered' X,Y,Z kata and I have to return every year to learn another."

Why do professional musicians continue to take lessons from others? Is there anything NEW to playing the flute, or saxophone, or whatever? I doubt it.

If I wanted to continue playing music I would have had to continue studying with my teacher (who, by the way, cost a hell of a lot more than a class with Soke in Japan). Why? Because he was better than me and would always have been. Why? Well, probably beacuse he had a 40 year head start....

I agree with a great deal of what Marc MacYoung says. A great deal. However, applying this particular argument of his in this situation simply does not follow.

Additionally, I believe that he is constantly coming to new understandings of budo. Which, to us, could look like 'new' information. In my opinion he is able to do this because he's not teaching at his classes, he himself is training.

[Ikai666]

I would be more of the opinion that as teachers progress they gain new insights into the techniques theyhave learnt and wish to impart it to students, that is certainly my experience

[saru1968]

Originally Posted by kuoshu

I originally posted this on the "Fit for Purpose" thread because

.....blah blah blah..etc

Kuoshu, please don't take this any other way than intended.

You really have no interest in the Bujinkan system, you have no idea what you are talking about, most have no interest in reading your posts so the question would be why do you continue? Your life cannot be that boring can it?

[ChrisMoon]

Originally Posted by saru1968

Kuoshu, please don't take this any other way than intended.

You really have no interest in the Bujinkan system, you have no idea what you are talking about, most have no interest in reading your posts so the question would be why do you continue? Your life cannot be that boring can it?

Spooky edited koushu's post and said to keep it civil and without inflammatory remarks. How is it this is considered non-inflammatory or civil? Paraphrasing someone's quote with "blah blah blah" would seem to be uncivil and inflammatory, at least to me anyway.

[bencole]

Originally Posted by kuoshu

Where'd this new information come from? We ask this because the Master never receives any additional training in his system.

Well, it's clear that you (or Mr. MacYoung) have never trained with Hatsumi-sensei, because anyone who has *KNOWS* that Soke is constantly learning and building on those around him.

I even have a photo in my book of Hatsumi-sensei sitting down, putting on his tabi before practice and stealing a glance at what people were working on. Would it surprise you to know that some of the things that he was observing later became part of the lesson?

This ability to observe others and connect it to the principles underlying the Bujinkan movement is a fundamental part of the training (one of the "three things" that the Bujinkan trains as a purpose in the "Fit for Purpose" thread.

Hatsumi-sensei continues to progress because he is, at heart, still a student--not only revisiting his lessons from Takamatsu-sensei, but feeding off the learning environment and growing as a martial artist!

Hope that allays your concerns (that is, if you actually *HAD* a concern).

-ben

[CandyCaneShinai]

Actually, Mr MacYoung's description sounded a hell of a lot like graduate school to me.

[newblack]

I'm on a never ending treadmill. Life is like that. It means I am not standing still. It means that I am moving forward. Paul, do you really think life fits into nice little boxes that can be compartmentalised to fit into a nice little filing systems?

[Banpen Fugyo]

I dunno, its kinda spot on in my opinion.

People fail to realize that just because you are running in place, doesnt mean you are going anywhere.

[newblack]

Originally Posted by Banpen Fugyo

I dunno, its kinda spot on in my opinion.

People fail to realize that just because you are running in place, doesnt mean you are going anywhere.

You appear to be looking at the issue from a point of a consumer, and whether the returns on your investment are positive. If I feel like I'm learning, and I know that I will never understand, then what is the problem?

I, only speaking for myself, am comfortable with the whole situation, and while I don't necessarily resent people like Paul trying so desperately to save me, I wonder about his motivation.

To be morally outraged on someone elses behalf is a sign of weakness, in my humble opinion.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Ok, I admit I was a little harsh...

But, what do you think the Bujinkan is? Its not a temple. Its not a homeless shelter. It's a business. You are paying for a service. The contract NEVER ends, and it doesn't even come with an instruction manual.

[newblack]

Originally Posted by Banpen Fugyo

Ok, I admit I was a little harsh...

No offence taken. I should smile more in my posts.

Originally Posted by Banpen Fugyo

But, what do you think the Bujinkan is? Its not a temple. Its not a homeless shelter. It's a business. You are paying for a service. The contract NEVER ends, and it doesn't even come with an instruction manual.

Myself. I consider the Bujinkan as an offer. I know what I am paying for, and it is not a service. I agree, though, there is no instruction manual, but this is true for life too, ne?

...

[Banpen Fugyo]

Ok, I can see that.

As far as the instruction manual goes, I was refferring more to the no-set-guidelines-and-quality-filter thing.

ie: Really crappy students and really crappy teachers mixed with a ciriculuum (sp) that's nonexistant.

[saru1968]

Originally Posted by ChrisMoon

Spooky edited koushu's post and said to keep it civil and without inflammatory remarks. How is it this is considered non-inflammatory or civil? Paraphrasing someone's quote with "blah blah blah" would seem to be uncivil and inflammatory, at least to me anyway.

Just saving space. Irratates me to see a-whole page of ''quote' really, your post is not too bad but a sentence longer and it would have been snipped.

Anyhow off topic..point was?

[bencole]

Originally Posted by Banpen Fugyo

But, what do you think the Bujinkan is? Its not a temple. Its not a homeless shelter. It's a business. You are paying for a service. The contract NEVER ends, and it doesn't even come with an instruction manual.

Contract? You are free to leave at any point that you find it is not fulfilling your needs.

There are plenty of people who feel that it *IS* fulfilling their needs. Some people consider the Bujinkan to be a temple. Others, a shelter for wayward souls. Others, a place to learn about weapons. Others, a place to hang out with people. And so on, and so forth.

As with any *ART*, the knowledge has stuff that is codified and stuff that is tacit. I've got lots of codified knowledge, including a big list of a whole bunch of techniques and how to do them, step-by-step. I personally am interested in the stuff *NOT* written down.

I'm sure a few other people also value this point as well.

-ben