Hi guys, I was surfing the net when I can across scans of an article written by a guy called Hsuan Kung Tze. The article is on the topic of how Leung Ting claimed to be the head of the Wing Chun school and was a first generation disciple of Yip Man. Note: The names are in mandarin (i think), so... Leung Ting = Liang T'ing Yip Man = Yeh Wen Wong Shun-Leung = Huang Ch'un-liang If any of you have read my other posts you know my position on Leung Ting and WingTsun. I think WingTsun is a good example of what I mean by McWingChun. But what do you guys think? Any WingTsun guys care to defend their Grandmaster?
8th dan blackbelt in Wing Chun? Hahahahahahahaha! I have heard that Leung Ting is bad before, I haven't really looked into it though. He seems fake, judging by that article (good find by the way). I also tried to find some videos of him and his students and I found some, it was definatly the Yip Man lineage but alot of it was done really poorly.
The question is: who is Hsuan Kung Tze? And might I suggest that you refrain from having a go at someone you don't know through hearsay? I'm assuming you haven't met him? It's very rude and frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. Of course, if you have any enlightening experiences to do with LT, LT's school or seniors or kwoons, or even a particular gripe with his techs, principles or style, please go ahead and enlighten us.
"Secrets of Kung Fu" Magazine I believe. On a further note, some people claim that Leung Ting had of photo doctored so that it appeared that he was with Yip Man. Here's an image of what on the right is supposedly the original, and on the right is the photo Leung Ting claims is undoctored.
I guess he's some guy from "Secrets of Kung Fu" magazine. Ummm... what? I do know him by hearsay, therefore your suggestion is not applicable to me. In either case your criticism of me on not being able to give criticism on people unless I've met them in person is illogical. I can critize Ashida Kim, or Frank Dux even though I've never met them on criteria of what they have or haven't done. I bet many people who read this forum feel perfectly justified at criticizing and having a go at politcal figures such as George Bush or John Howard etc... based upon what they have said, claimed, done or haven't done. So your criticism is moot. Why thank you. Exactly what do I not know what I'm talking about? I can't defend against abstractions, give me some specifics. I've trained and mucked about with various experienced WT players, I haven't found one of a good quality or that really understands what Wing Chun is about. But enlightening you about Wing Tsun and it's practioneers would be "having a go" at them wouldn't it? And that would be very rude, right?
Not only have i heard this but alot of those books he has made where stolen from there rightfull creators to. He even created a writing name. With all that why does it seem no one is willing to face him in hand to hand combat an kill him? Is this such a big thing there has never been a total over all organization for any Chinese martial arts so anyone can an does seem to claim themselves masters every day. The closest thing i have heard of as an orginization that tried to have some standard to martial arts of China as a hole was Chinwo. It did not succed. I think there should be a orgainization that can maintian to some level a functional set of history or geneology so everyone could know but i dought that will happen. Which is a shame an a true sham.
In my personal experience LTWT sucks major ass.... Of course i will say that 1) I havent 'touched hands with every single one of them' and 2) with such a big organisation common sense says some within the org CAN fight so if you say "yeah but blah blah blah is good" i will say exeption not rule but the real shame is with such proliferaton the org has sadly become one of the standards with which wing chun is judged and THAT is the true crime not LT proclaiming 11th level master of almightyness
Yeah, and what is his axe to grind I wonder? Clever boy. Pick up on the typo. There should have been an 'except' in there. No, it isn't. Go ahead and criticize Dubya all you like, but your spreading tattletale gossip makes you screen name look stupid, and wouldn't have impressed Wong Sifu either (he always made his hands do the talking, not schoolgirl gossip). Sure he had alot to say about other sifu, as do many of the greats out there today, but they never bandied it about it public like the classless LT, William Cheung, and er, you. Don't you have some training to go and do? More passive aggressive BS. You make a pointless thread attacking someone and then claim my criticism of it is an abstraction. Disingenious. No, that would be talking about experience rather than BS which makes a laughing stock of our whole kungfu style. Do you think anybody else knows the difference between LT's fu and WSL's fu? Or do they just think it's those puny skinny, slap-happy bickering old women? Since you seem to know what 'wing chun is all about' (since you can tell those who can't), perhaps you'd care to sum that up for us too? Or is it about telling tales and moaning?
My experiences of Leung Ting's wing chun. I have practised wing chun with three LT students. One was a student of Keith Kernspecht's for somewhere between 5 and 8 years. We'll call him A. The other two were students in a North European country: we'll call them B and C. A: Train with him a lot: chi sao and sometimes light sparring (ie, no protection other than gumshield and box, not really pulling punches to the body much, no takedowns but control on the point of balance, stopping after a few good exchanges to chill out). Stiff, bad balance, but to be fair he was out of practice for a long time, and then joined another school. Also he has injury problems. B: 13 year student in LT's org. Trained with him a bit: same as above. Also out of practice but had reached some relatively high-faluting titled level. Very soft, quite sensitive, not good at changing from covering centre to covering outside gates, not attacking enough. Balance was OK, but could take his root (crush his centre or move his whole body) too easily, suggesting to me he hadn't practiced SLT or CK or their apps enough, hadn't practiced with realistic enough resistance, hadn't worked out delinking to preserve his structure (but then he hadn't done BG). Nice guy (as is A), very willing to exchange (ie accept constructive criticism and show me the way he did things). C: Trained with twice, chi sao. Fancy title. Maybe 15 years. Pompous ass. 'Sifu'. Hasty. Didn't know when he was open/vulnerable. Didn't accept when his balance had gone. Completely adamant that his way was the best. Showed me the trademark LT stepping-in method with feet perfectly in a straight line, and didn't accept that it was a stupid easily-taken position even when I (continuously) angled off and swept his front or both legs. This stepping method meant that his body was one completely inflexible unit, so I suspect his punches had no power. Conclusions about LT's style in general: Only this: His stepping method sucks. It's quick but easy to counter, easy to predict, and inflexible (in terms of not being able to change direction quickly, and ovecomtting even when you have no chance of blasting through), and I suspect power generation sucks accordingly. On net: 'spoken' to one US practitioner who definitely knows his stuff, phyically and theoretically, and debunked a lot of the things I've just complained about. I'd like to train with him if I can, just to see. Seen a lot of LT's people's vids. They love speed and chainpunching too much in my opinion. Their structure and initial position often seems to lose out to speed, and their chainpunches are used as a blanket tech, as opposed to the specific times when my style uses them. They love pseudo MMA (mostly featuring other LT chunners with very substandard grappling), and violent demos against other chunners and pretend-boxers etc which don't prove much. I am impressed by their control at times, and by their speed at times, tho as I said, I think they often sacrifice other qualities for it. Seen LT himself on some vids: seems he has a great sense of humour, and knows a lot of stuff. His sense of humour may account for the ludicrous grading system, but then he may laugh a lot because he has a huge organistion and makes a helluva lot of money, and as forever young said, it concerns me a bit to think that he is considered representtive of wing chun in general. His grading system is a joke, in that the syllabus doesn't appear to cover some things ina logical sequence, and that it has so many (expensive) steps before you get the next bit. The claims of grandmastership of WC in general are silly, and obviously so. From net vids and people's reports, Emin Boztepe's got some crazy skills, but markets himself in the same annoying manner as LT, and I haven't seen enough of his students to know what they're like. Just a few thoughts, hopefully a little objective. I could do the same kind of critique on any organisation I've come across, and on my own wing chun, but since you haven't met me and have no idea of my skills it's all just more useless chitchat. Excuse any typos, it's late. Back to training.
it is simply verry unlikely that gong-sau-rick will ever meet or indeed spar/fight LT, but from what he has seen in the form of this article and i assume other sources does allow him to discuss it. why does lack of first hand experience of meeting him automatically dissallow him the right the debate his cred. i mean the issue has been discussed to death and most accounts i have seen have pointed him to be rather fraudulent in his writing and is seen to make many unverifiable claims. is this true?well i dont know,but because im discussing it does that then make it as you say 'school girl gossip'. ive never met hitler,napoleon but i can make comments on them,they may not be aswell infromed as someone who has had a time machine and had gone and met them but people still have a right to discuss them. 'No, that would be talking about experience rather than BS which makes a laughing stock of our whole kungfu style. Do you think anybody else knows the difference between LT's fu and WSL's fu? Or do they just think it's those puny skinny, slap-happy bickering old women? Since you seem to know what 'wing chun is all about' (since you can tell those who can't), perhaps you'd care to sum that up for us too? Or is it about telling tales and moaning? ' i think that is bit extreme,the guy was only showing a page from a magazine he has read and then asked for thoughts and opinions,i dont beleive i have seen him outright say LT is bad or whatever, and he said he hasnt met a WC practitioner that is good,fair play,he may not have. i dont think you can outright say its BS to criticise him as people have shown annomoly's in his writings and claims just as much as you cant outright say he should be criticised as the evidence is not conclusive enough. Mr Punch i think you were a little out of line in how you reacted to the topic but im glad you listed your WT experience as to show you know what your talking about from your side of the argument. it will always remain a grey area, but lineage in martial arts,especially chinese ones are always murky. as a matter of interest,does anyone have any more reports like this on LT,be they defending his position or against it. BTW i have nothing against the WT guys,i find that their wing chun on the whole more pragmatic and tested more often with sparring and so on.
This kind of thing kills me... never... except for in Kung Fu is there more fussin' and fightin... only that a punch rarely if ever gets thrown. Year after year there is the constant moaning and bickering about who has what lineage, who fought who, who will allow who to fight who, who wears the pants. Get on with it already. It's pathetic. Is it really that hard to arrange a good proper punch up and get it recorded for posterity? A whole lot of bark and not a lot of bite.
Thank you Slipthejab, I couldn't agree more. How many Wing Chun Sifu Does it take to scew in a lightbulb? ... ... ... ... ... ... ANSWER ( 3 ) ... .... .... One Sifu .... instead of talking, does what needs to be done and screws it in......... the other two Sifu stand to the outside, observe, and state....."that's not how we do it at our school". Kew-Do
I see where you coming from Slip, but at the end of the day I don't want anyone to pay money to be trained by someone who teaches a misinterpreted and misunderstood version of a good system. I don't want them to be self-decieved, or even worse get killed. Unless the instructors say, "Well we teach a watered down version of Wing Chun with fries." Instead of marketing their training on the reputation of the true Chunners of old. It's all good to say that we bicker, whine and moan like sissy girls with sand in our panties. But you need to appreciate the fact that the lineage thing is bloody important! There's a big difference between learning BJJ from someone who was instructed by Rickson Gracie for 10+ years and had a perfect NHB record, than someone who learnt BJJ from a purple belt that hardly fought in any competition and started his own international organisation and then told everyone he trained under Helio Gracie. Out of the kindness of my own heart I would try to inform as many BJJers as possible that the BJJ taught by the purple belt's "lineage" is not of the same standard as the Rickson "lineage", and that the purple belt "lineage" dosen't have a full understanding of the system. Would they get mad? Probably. Should I still tell them? Of course. Savvy?
I see where your altruism is coming into play... but I guess to me what seems the main difference is that (using your example) a BJJ practitioner would take it to the mat... and it'd get sorted there... it seems as if for generations KF has been primarily a passtime for people to bicker about what may have possibly happened.
Well that does seem to happen somewhat in Wing Chun aswell. Many MANY people who train in my school are sort of like Wing Chun refugees from dodgy lineages. My own sifu got his ass kicked by Chunners in Hong Kong because of his previous WC training. As far as my understanding goes it seems to me from the sources I've read, the repected Wing Chunners I've talked to and the WingTsunners I've played with that Leung Ting isn't really as great and as qualified as his organisation claims he is. To conclude this thread I think this tribute video is wholly appropriate, since Leung Ting will always be my ballerina girl... (how can I stay mad at that con, really :love: ) http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=3889452645588432535&q=leung+ting
After reading more of other parts of the site lately i truly feel ALL arts are the same (check out "The Meaning of Kali" - fillipino or perhaps "OH MY GOD !!!!xing yi - ima section for reference ) That also rings true of gi v no gi or jjj/judo vs bjj, cats vs dogs and finally spiders vs wasps (my personal favorite )it just seems as usual its more picked up on/laughed at in wing chun while ignored in most other arts i see. anyways i just thought i would pick up on this peculiar aspect of wc bashing
Slip, I agree entirely, which is why I think this much overhashed topic should be put to bed. Gong Sau Rick, your explanation about lineage makes a lot of sense, but frankly there are enough people chanting the sutra of 'buyer beware' all over the internet and the media in general, and enough people in MA should be savvy to it, that if anyone's stupid enough to take LT's school at face value (or anyone else's for that matter) it's their problem. Hope they don't get maimed in the ring or stabbed in the face, but otherwise they are welcome to live in their bubble! I've met some people who think that LT rules and they suck. I've met some people like that from most lineages. I've also met people who say that this works 'because LT says this this and this' and some people who say 'WSL could really fight therefore lineage is important' despite never doing any full contact sparring, entering a ring, or even getting out of a pub scrape. There are bad sifu in every lineage. That's why I like to concentrate more on training and less on lineage. Oh yeah, that and the fact that I'm a lineage mongrel!
