The dark side of modern Karate

[Jimmy Jitsu]

Hi guys been doing a bit of histroy research on the origins of modern karate. Basically from what I understand karate (even traditional) is a relatively new martial art concept originating from Okinawa and is a hybrid of Chinese MA (I would say kempo) and Te a MA originating in Okinawa. In fact I would go as far to say the original karate was in fact kempo. The original name was Chinese hand which got changed in the early 20th cent. to empty hand to make it more appealing to the ultra-nationalistic views on main land Japan. In fact in the early 20th cent. karate was taught in a very militaristic and almost brutal manner (which was quite different from traditional karate). The reason for the new style pf training appears to me to make it very simplistic to teach a large amount in one setting and to make the student psychologically accept orders from superiors thus generating ultra nationalist fanatics and we all know where that ended. Japanese soldiers doing the most horrific acts on other South Easteners and POWs. Additionally the word Osu apparently has no relavence in the Japanese language. Therefore do you feel that karate should drop the idealology and training methods of 1900-1950 and go back to its original Okinawa formulation.

[MartialArtN00b]

Wouldnt that mean going back to the non -sparring days- kata all day type of train?

For which, my response is a 'nay'.

[thepunisher]

Actually from what I heard karate doesn't even come from Japan but originates from India.

Christian

[Yohan]

Well, I think you are way off on all counts. First off, okinawan karate originates from (i beleive) Fukkien White Crane and Five Ancestor Fist.

See san chein, which is the first form in most okinawan karates. It is also the major form in Wuzuquan (Five Ancestor Fist).

[Yohan]

Actually from what I heard karate doesn't even come from Japan but originates from India.

Well, you heard wrong!

[Evil Betty]

This is nothing new. Anyone who really studys karate knows that the Japanese were (and still are, sorta) a very nationalistic country.

I'm perfectly fine with Okinawan and Japanese karate continuing the way they are now. I'd just like to see better quality schools and some more logical instructors.

[DarthSamurai]

Originally Posted by Yohan

Well, you heard wrong!

well, jujutsu is thought by some to come from India, and I've heard nationalistic Karate historians claim that the striking concepts of Karate were derived from jujutsu.

It's all very muddled though.

[Angelus]

Dont think well ever know... people will always claim that it comes from a certian place but we still dont have anything solid to back it up....

[Moosey]

Originally Posted by Evil Betty

This is nothing new. Anyone who really studys karate knows that the Japanese were (and still are, sorta) a very nationalistic country.

I'm perfectly fine with Okinawan and Japanese karate continuing the way they are now. I'd just like to see better quality schools and some more logical instructors.

Seconded!

I think anyone who's looked at karate history realises that karate was modified on its route to japan in order to make it more regimented to prepare people for military service and more physically demanding in order to raise people's fitness in preparation for military service. In the grander scheme of things, this doesn't mean it was made worse.

[GeeMac]

I've read that Bodhidharma - from India - was credited with bringing martial arts techniques to the Shaolin monestery. From his original techniques the Shaolin style of kung fu developed. If this is so, Bodhidharma must have learned the techniques somewhere. I have also read that Pankration was the first documented martial art. I am sure that there are many other 'origins' of martials arts.

[thepunisher]

Originally Posted by Yohan

Well, you heard wrong!

Actually, probably not that much Yohan if you care to take a look at this link:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeffrey.muir/jeffkori.htm

Looks like the MA's origins from karate can be traced back to China and from their back all the way to India.

Christian

[leeless]

Originally Posted by thepunisher

Actually, probably not that much Yohan if you care to take a look at this link:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeffrey.muir/jeffkori.htm

Well, that proves everything then. It's on the Internet, it must be true!

Not questioning you mate, but be wary of what you read. You could probably find 100 websites that prove a point, and a 100 more that contradict those.

[chrispy]

I would imagine that where your research determines the origin of Karate to be, depends on the materials you have access to. On the INternet or at your local library I'm sure you'll fine any number of different theories on where Karate came from originall.. even in this single thread we've seen 3 or 4 suggestions.


But I have to go wit what Moosey and Evil Betty said regarding the the topic at hand...Originally Posted by Evil Betty
This is nothing new. Anyone who really studys karate knows that the Japanese were (and still are, sorta) a very nationalistic country.

I'm perfectly fine with Okinawan and Japanese karate continuing the way they are now. I'd just like to see better quality schools and some more logical instructors.

Seconded!

I think anyone who's looked at karate history realises that karate was modified on its route to japan in order to make it more regimented to prepare people for military service and more physically demanding in order to raise people's fitness in preparation for military service. In the grander scheme of things, this doesn't mean it was made worse.

Just because it has changed over time does not mean that is has been made worse as whole.

[LiaoRouxin]

Kind of hard to come from India when most of the Chinese concepts of martial arts existed before Damo came to the Shaolin temple, at least so far as I've been able to ascertain... maybe there is a connection, but it's tenuous at best.

The problem with tracing martial arts history is that the written records are very sketchy and based off of oral accounts and traditions, which in any culture are just as soon to be assumed fiction as bearing any semblance of truth. It's kind of like basing your knowledge of 3rd century China off the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or 5th century Britain on King Arthur. Saying Damo brought the foundation of Chinese martial arts to China has about the same basis as saying Guan Yu invented the abacus: it's a folk tradition.

[TKDMitch]

Originally Posted by moosey

Seconded!

I think anyone who's looked at karate history realises that karate was modified on its route to japan in order to make it more regimented to prepare people for military service and more physically demanding in order to raise people's fitness in preparation for military service. In the grander scheme of things, this doesn't mean it was made worse.

I was under the impression that Shotokan was modified largely to make it suitable for teaching to Japanese school children (in addition to many other factors I'm sure). Most of the techniques that could result in nasty injuries if kids were messing about were removed or only taught later.

So shotokan is children's karate, little girl's karate if you will; you hear that all you Shotokan practicioners?! Thank the Lord I do TKD, which is of course completely different...

Mitch