I just worked something out....

[MattK]

This might not be interesting to anyone, but i thought it was.

I was taking a break from my revision for my last exam, and i thought id practice my Kamae. I was just flowing from Kamae to Kamae generally thinking about each one as i did it. For some reason i decided that i would try and adopt the kamae in situations which wer'nt just a big space. So i stood at angles againt a wall, surrounded by chairs etc... and had a play. It didnt really suprise me that the Kamae we adaptable to work in situations like this, but heres the bit that i found interesting:

For some reason i decided to lie on the floor, and try my Kamae while lying down. I think i was just trying to get the feeling of the kamae no matter where i was, but suddenly it hit me.

The kamae work on the floor. Ichimonji delivers a perfect guard (defensive)against an attack with the front leg, you can also kick up with it. Jumonji allows both feet to become attacking parts. Hira no kamae is probably usefull... i can imagine some leg takedowns being available.

As i said, im sure most people had probably figured this out... but i thought i'd put it up. Its food for thought anyway.

[Radio4aHead237]

Wouldnt Hira leave you a little...open...

it was an interesting idea though to try it on the ground...never thought of that...just remember not to hit the deck and start wriggling about when someone comes at you

[thomaspaine]

I dunno...extending the kamae toward ground work seems like a little bit of a stretch. I don't even know how you can do ichimonji on the ground, I mean, how do you get your back foot off on that 45 when your butt is on the ground? Maybe you can post some pictures because I can't picture it. Hicho kiiiiind of looks like a half-guard position, except that your foot should be locked behind your knee. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like nail I guess...

[KSprenk]

Do you mean doing the kamae on the ground facing up? Or do you mean facing paralell with the floor. If you mean facing up, then the only ones you really couldn't do well are Ichimonji and the other one that is kinda like ichimonji. I think all the offensive and receiving kamae would work. I think I will go try it now and see how it works.

[thomaspaine]

I would think that the ground would have it's own seperate set of kamae, since fighting on the ground is pretty different than fighting standing up. I believe in japanese jujutsu groundfighting is referred to as newaza? And the guard, half-guard, etc all have japanese names, which I think is about as close to kamae as you will get on the ground...but I don't know too much about the Bujinkan style of groundfighting since I've only seen it a couple times, although it appeared very similar to bjj and japanese jujutsu groundfighting.

[bencole]

Originally Posted by thomaspaine

I dunno...extending the kamae toward ground work seems like a little bit of a stretch.

I disagree. It's all the same, whether you are lying on the ground or with your back against a wall.

I don't even know how you can do ichimonji on the ground, I mean, how do you get your back foot off on that 45 when your butt is on the ground?

Look at the kamae as ways of controlling the space, rather than "foot here, hand there." You'll get much better mileage with these ideas if you do....

I would think that the ground would have it's own seperate set of kamae, since fighting on the ground is pretty different than fighting standing up.

Not at all. "ALL SAME!!" as Soke says....

Fighting on the ground or fighting standing up is all about controlling the space and using your body efficiently. While you cannot "step" with your foot, you can get similar results from using your spine, stepping your "butt", and the like.

You will lose a ground fight the second you allow a groundfighter to dominate the space. You can win if you control the space. This is not an issue of "mechanics." The principles of Taijutsu do not change merely because you are lying on your back, walking on ice with a sack of potatoes, or wading through 500 pounds of lime green jello. (I must be getting hungry... )

Look at the principles, rather than the pedantics.

There is a reason why I could teach a seminar entitled, "Tachiwaza = Newaza = No Waza" and the content all be "valid" Taijutsu.

"ALL SAME!!!"

Good luck!

-ben

[MattK]

I thought this topic had died but obviously not.

Obviously the Kamae cant be perfectly done, but then thats not really the point. Kamae, as far as im aware, are more to do with space and distance rather than the actual kamae itself.

The way i had done it was lying flat on my back.... literally turning the kamae 90 degrees. So Jumonji is exactly the same. In ichimonji i had my back leg flat against the floor with my front foot extending ito the air to control that frontal space that would be made from dropping back into ichimonji if i was standing.

[thomaspaine]

Originally Posted by bencole

You will lose a ground fight the second you allow a groundfighter to dominate the space. You can win if you control the space.
-ben

Obviously, any good grappler worth his salt will tell you this. "Position over submission". However, getting the position is something else entirely and it seems like a huuuuge stretch to try and apply the standup kamae to groundfighting.

I've only trained with one Bujinkan person who actually knew groundfighting, but I didn't train with him for very long and that was a few years ago. My last instructor really dissapointed me with his groundfighting skills though...I told him that I had just started bjj and so him and I did a little light rolling one day. I had him in the mount position and he went for an eye gouge...the absolute worst thing you can do if someone mounts you, because
a) If the person mounting you has grappling experience it is the perfect armbar setup
b) If the person mounting you does not have grappling experience, it will likely just piss him off and make him punch your face into pulp. I remember reading a thread on MAP of this exact thing happening. I wish I could remember which thread, but basically the guy in the mount punched the guy a few times and was going to let him go, when the guy tried to eye gouge him. He managed to scrape the cornea a little bit, sending the other fellow into a rage and beating the other guy's face into hamburger meat.

Interesting stuff though. I've been dieing to see some Bujinkan ground work, but have been unable to find a good instructor. If I ever see a Bujinkan groundfighting seminar near me I'll have to check it out.

[xen]

Originally Posted by thomaspaine

and it seems like a huuuuge stretch to try and apply the standup kamae to groundfighting.

i don't think matt means religiously trying to force the kamae to fit a situation,
more like taking the essence of the shape or pattern of a stance and adapting it to the constraints of the environment.

its something i'd not thought of explicitly (kamae on the ground), but it does make sense and i'm trying to think of some exercises to try out in the dojo to develop the idea.

if it does nothing else, it gets people exploring possibilities, and thats never a bad thing.