Question!!!

[Ryoko]

Ok. My cousin, who is a black belt in something or other, said that pretty much all ninjutsu dojos are McDojos or have merely guessed what the ninjas had done in the past, provided that they did exist. He raised the valid point that the skills and techniques would remain in the ninja clans and just be passed down within the clan from generation to generation. He also said that the only person/dojo that might have an idea is some dojo run by this person who claims that he is the decendant of someone who helped exterminate the ninjas,(and that he passed the knowledge down) and therefore, even if it is true, it is still second-hand information. Is this true? I mean, it seems logical and several people claiming to teach ninjutsu admit to making it up.
chances are that opinions will differ on this matter, but id prefer to hear them.
Thanks alot.
-Ryoko

[kouryuu]

Ok, while i agree to some of the points made here, especially regarding the Mcdojo`s, ie Fuma ryu, Koga ryu(ron duncan, loriega)etc etc, your cousin who is a blackbelt in something or other needs to open his mind a bit, Hatsumi Sensei is THE recognised Soke of the 9 schools which make up the Bujinkan and authority regarding Ninjutsu, he is a National Treasure in Japan and has had many honours bestowed upon him all over the world, including some notable national leaders, not just Martial arts, there are also two others, Tanemura(Genbukan and Hatsumi sensei`s cousin) and Manaka(Jinenkan), BOTH trained under Hatsumi sensei for many many years before going their own way.

There are the Dojo`s which started out in the Bujinkan but decided they could do it better and left, there are also many dojo`s out there purporting to teach Ninjutsu that have never trained in this art under anybody, they`ve jumped on the bandwagon, made up there own version, called themselves Soke or Grandmaster and hey presto, probably exactly what your cousin has found or heard of from a second party, so without looking any further he`s decided all Ninjutsu dojo`s are the same, YOU would be better finding out for yourself, go and find an authentic Dojo, train under a recognised teacher and make up your own mind.

Happy hunting and happy training.

[Ryoko]

thanks alot. that makes sense. anyone else?

[Brad Ellin]

Originally Posted by Ryoko

Ok. My cousin, who is a black belt in something or other, said that pretty much all ninjutsu dojos are McDojos or have merely guessed what the ninjas had done in the past, provided that they did exist. He raised the valid point that the skills and techniques would remain in the ninja clans and just be passed down within the clan from generation to generation. He also said that the only person/dojo that might have an idea is some dojo run by this person who claims that he is the decendant of someone who helped exterminate the ninjas,(and that he passed the knowledge down) and therefore, even if it is true, it is still second-hand information. Is this true? I mean, it seems logical and several people claiming to teach ninjutsu admit to making it up.
chances are that opinions will differ on this matter, but id prefer to hear them.
Thanks alot.
-Ryoko

Black belt in something or other? I would have to question whether or not he exists. After all, I have seen no proof of it. However, there is historical proof that the Ninja did exist and that the arts practiced by them are still being taught today. You can read thru this Forum and find many references and links to this information. (By the way, just kidding about your cousin, but trying to make a point too)
And no, your "logic" doesn't sem logical. Nor is your point valid. The ninja were not exterminated. They simply went "underground" for a time. Read any of the works by Hatsumi or Tanemura. Read up on Takamatsu Sensei.

[Ryoko]

what do you mean "logic doesnt seem logical"?! english please!
my cousin DOES exist, thank you. and i value his opinion.
the last time i checked you were allowed to ask questions that ya wanna kno the answers to on this site without being bashed or accused of being illogical, ignorant and a liar.
no insult intended, but if the ninjas were so secretive about their techniques, i dont think that they would go around blabbing outside their clans, so i dont really see how that point wasnt valid.
once again, no insutlt intended, but did you personally go "underground for a time" with the ninjas? and what exactly do you mean "for a time"? ya mean up until now?
i realize that some dojos might actually teach the traditional ninjutsu and may be, infact, legitimate and NOT McDojos. This is why i asked the question.
sorry if this is interpreted as rude, because this is not intended to be so.
-Ryoko

[Brad Ellin]

Originally Posted by Ryoko

what do you mean "logic doesnt seem logical"?! english please!
my cousin DOES exist, thank you. and i value his opinion.
the last time i checked you were allowed to ask questions that ya wanna kno the answers to on this site without being bashed or accused of being illogical, ignorant and a liar.
no insult intended, but if the ninjas were so secretive about their techniques, i dont think that they would go around blabbing outside their clans, so i dont really see how that point wasnt valid.
once again, no insutlt intended, but did you personally go "underground for a time" with the ninjas? and what exactly do you mean "for a time"? ya mean up until now?
i realize that some dojos might actually teach the traditional ninjutsu and may be, infact, legitimate and NOT McDojos. This is why i asked the question.
sorry if this is interpreted as rude, because this is not intended to be so.
-Ryoko

Reread what I said. You're cousin is making claims that the Ninja may not even have existed. Why? So, I said (with tongue firmly in cheek) that I question your cousin's existence, why? Because I have never seen him.
Your logic not being logical, you have offered no facts or proof to back up any of your or your cousin's claims. I can cite several sources for mine.
No insult taken. But the Ninja families didn't exactly go around blabbing. The arts were passed down thru the generations, until eventually they came together with Takamatsu Sensei.
By going underground, I meant that, after the Samurai were banned, and the wars were won, there was no need of the Ninja's intelligence gathering skills. At least not in the capacity that they had served. So, they went underground. Retreated to their respective villages, families, clans, mountain sides, whatever. They did not advertise their existence and eventually people forgot about them. And no, I didn't go with them. I get my information from reading various sources. Hatsumi's books, Ben Cole's articles and writings. Hayes' old stuff (which has been updated over the years). One of my Teacher's from back East has done a massive amount of research. He reads and writes Japanese and is a very informed and thorough historian.
So far, you have only presented what your cousin and you guess to be or what a few unnamed individuals have agreed with . Facts please. Not romance, not video games, not fictional books or movies.

And please, don't think I'm knocking you. I'm not. You can ask all the questions you want, just keep in mind that you may not like all the answers you hear. And keep a sense of humour. I sometimes use it to illustrate a point.

As a general rule: Bujinkan, Jinenkan and Genbukan teach authenticate Ninjutsu. Bujinkan is a bit closer to the source, being headed by Masaaki Hatsumi who was awarded the title of Soke by Takamatsu Sensei.

[Kalifallen]

Originally Posted by Ryoko

Ok. My cousin, who is a black belt in something or other, said that pretty much all ninjutsu dojos are McDojos or have merely guessed what the ninjas had done in the past, provided that they did exist. He raised the valid point that the skills and techniques would remain in the ninja clans and just be passed down within the clan from generation to generation. He also said that the only person/dojo that might have an idea is some dojo run by this person who claims that he is the decendant of someone who helped exterminate the ninjas,(and that he passed the knowledge down) and therefore, even if it is true, it is still second-hand information. Is this true? I mean, it seems logical and several people claiming to teach ninjutsu admit to making it up.
-Ryoko

All ninjutsu dojos are McDojos? That's pretty hash no matter what reason you say it for. Still that is TOTALLY wrong. I'd say there are as many McDojos in ninjutsu as there are in any other martial art.
Of course ninja's existed. Funny, cousin.
Yes, ninjutsu stayed within the clans, especially in the Koga reigon (its a small reigon).
Helped exterminate a ninja? A what? Why or how would an exterminator of ninja's learn ninjutsu? I mean, I wouldn't teach someone my art if they had a job of killing people that learned my art. And for that matter why would someone who hated ninja's enough to murder them want to learn ninjutsu? That is the most illogical thing your cousin said, sorry but true.
Um, actually I haven't really heard or seen anyone actually say, "Yeah, I made it up." They mostly say, "Oh, well its a modern form." or "I decided to make it better." Maybe they have indirectly said that they made it up but I never heard anyone say is directly.

Side note: Some time after the Togawara era (I think that's how you spell it; 18th century Japan) when they samurai were being disbanned so were the ninja. Some like the Iga just decided to "go underground" (funny way of saying it because they were always underground [meaning it was always illegal to learn/use ninjutsu even when they were working with the government]), but clans like the Koga respected the government so much so that when the government said disban they totally disbanned like the samurai. So in reality there is NO grandmaster of the Koga lineage because of that, only Iga.
Also the only exterminators of the ninja, to my knowledge, were the samurai. And the majority of the samurai hated the ninja because they didn't not have a moral code that they all lived by (only moral code ninja's had was the one they provided for themselves, while samurai had a social one, kind of like rules to live by). So there is noway a samurai would disgrace himself in learning ninjutsu.

[Brum]

How would your cousin know anyway? Is he a black belt in Bujinkan? You seem to think you know alot about the Ninja, are you a member of any ninjutsu martial arts clubs? Have you researched it?

[Kwajman]

BWAHAHAHAHAHHA, sic 'em Kuro....

[xplasma]

Wow your cousin's a black belt?! in a style that isn't important enough to even remember! Guess what; who cares! As for attacking Ninjutsu. Usually the only ones I seen attack it is people who can't to it or people scared by it. Am I making fun your your cousin.......yes I am.

[Ryoko]

Originally Posted by Kalifallen

All ninjutsu dojos are McDojos? That's pretty hash no matter what reason you say it for. Still that is TOTALLY wrong. I'd say there are as many McDojos in ninjutsu as there are in any other martial art.
Of course ninja's existed. Funny, cousin.
Yes, ninjutsu stayed within the clans, especially in the Koga reigon (its a small reigon).
Helped exterminate a ninja? A what? Why or how would an exterminator of ninja's learn ninjutsu? I mean, I wouldn't teach someone my art if they had a job of killing people that learned my art. And for that matter why would someone who hated ninja's enough to murder them want to learn ninjutsu? That is the most illogical thing your cousin said, sorry but true.
Um, actually I haven't really heard or seen anyone actually say, "Yeah, I made it up." They mostly say, "Oh, well its a modern form." or "I decided to make it better." Maybe they have indirectly said that they made it up but I never heard anyone say is directly.

Side note: Some time after the Togawara era (I think that's how you spell it; 18th century Japan) when they samurai were being disbanned so were the ninja. Some like the Iga just decided to "go underground" (funny way of saying it because they were always underground [meaning it was always illegal to learn/use ninjutsu even when they were working with the government]), but clans like the Koga respected the government so much so that when the government said disban they totally disbanned like the samurai. So in reality there is NO grandmaster of the Koga lineage because of that, only Iga.
Also the only exterminators of the ninja, to my knowledge, were the samurai. And the majority of the samurai hated the ninja because they didn't not have a moral code that they all lived by (only moral code ninja's had was the one they provided for themselves, while samurai had a social one, kind of like rules to live by). So there is noway a samurai would disgrace himself in learning ninjutsu.

whoa, whoa, whoa.
i am NOT, i repeat, NOT saying that all ninjutsu dojos are mcdojos.
second, if you looked at my post, i said that the information of the person claiming to be a decendant of a ninja-exterminator was highly questionable.
third, its the Tokugawa Era. as in just before the Meiji Revolution when Samurais became considered obsolete due to the mass modernization and the coming of the barbarians.
thank you for the information though. i appreciate the input.
and last but not least, and i want everyone to read this part:

I AM NOT, WAS NOT AND WILL NOT, INSULT NINJUTSU. INFACT I DOUBTED MY COUSIN, BUT STILL HAD TO TAKE HIS OPINION INTO COUNT. I DID NOT MEAN THAT EVERY SINGLE NINJUTSU DOJO IS A MCDOJO. IT PROBABLY HAS AS MANY AS ANY OTHER STYLE. I APOLOGIZE IF ANYONE TOOK THIS AS A POINTED ATTACK ON NINJUTSU. I WAS JUST TRYING TO CLARIFY WHAT THE TRUTH IS BECAUSE I WAS/AM INTERESTED IN THIS STYLE AND THOUGHT I SHOULD ASK PRACTITIONERS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH.

[Ryoko]

Originally Posted by Brum

How would your cousin know anyway? Is he a black belt in Bujinkan? You seem to think you know alot about the Ninja, are you a member of any ninjutsu martial arts clubs? Have you researched it?

Have i researched it? Yes.
do i think i know everything or even alot about it? No. I am aware that i am far from an expert on this topic.
am i a member in a ninjutsu club? No.
and as for my cousin, he knows alot of people in different styles, and quite frankly, i dont know how he knows. i am merely exploring the possibilities in hopes of finding out the truth.

[Ryoko]

Originally Posted by xplasma

Wow your cousin's a black belt?! in a style that isn't important enough to even remember! Guess what; who cares! As for attacking Ninjutsu. Usually the only ones I seen attack it is people who can't to it or people scared by it. Am I making fun your your cousin.......yes I am.

personally, i dont care if youre making fun of my cousin.
and i am not scared of ninjutsu, NOR AM I ATTACKING IT.
although it appears i should have made that clearer.

[kouryuu]

"personally, i dont care if youre making fun of my cousin.
and i am not scared of ninjutsu, NOR AM I ATTACKING IT.
although it appears i should have made that clearer."

Yep!

[Kalifallen]

I wasn't saying you believed that I was just commenting on what your cousin said. I didn't mean it to sound as if I thought you personally were saying it. I'm just saying you shouldn't believe what your cousin say cause it is obvious he is racist/bias against ninja's/ninjutsu.