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  #61  
Old 23-Dec-2013, 01:19 AM
Earl Weiss Earl Weiss is offline
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Originally Posted by EternalRage View Post
This is something that always mind boggles me because the Korean government pressured kwans to join together to create a new Korean martial art that had could contribute to a new Korean identity, but then just ended up keeping the same traditions as Japanese Karate, from the lining up and ranking in seniority with a belt system all the way to the uniforms, and on top of that just mixed up the Heian forms to make new forms and pretty much kept the basic movements (albeit not execution) the same.
Couldn't the same be said for the formats many "Japanese" arts borrowed from Okinawa?

How about what Okinawa arts borrowed from China?
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  #62  
Old 23-Dec-2013, 12:15 PM
Earl Weiss Earl Weiss is offline
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Originally Posted by TKDstudent View Post

I am not sure where that thought came from about him going to NK in the 60s came from. It is totally incorrect & paints an inaccurate picture, which in turn allows a terrible slander to go unchecked! I imagine this was part of the vilification of a great Korean Patriot
The General Choi haters like to recite part of a stroy in an attempt to discredit him.

Another popular one is reciting the story about Sun Duc Son demoting him and expelling him from the Chung Do Kwan but leaving out:

1. The newspaper advertisement taken out by Sun Duc Son was done after he had already been removed as head of the CDK; and
2. The very same ad listed the expulsion of Nam TAe Hi and Uhm Woon Kyo, and it is know that GM Nam remained a respected member of the CDK until he died and GM Uhm was president from that time for over 5 decades while GM Sun was forever gone.

The events listed at #2 speak volumes for the purported actions of GM Son, and their effect yet they conspicuosly absent when the actions of the article are listed to discredit General Choi.
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  #63  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 08:25 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by KickChick View Post
As a student of Korean MA I am surprised that you haven't read any of the history concerning Gen. Choi

Aside from his autobiography ... I have read the Moral Guidebook a Vol 3 in a trio.... then Volume One: Motherland, the Land in Turmoil and Volume Two: The Vision of Exile: Any Place under Heaven is Do-Jang ...

If you're lazy read this article of Gen Choi's extensive interview in TKD Times
http://www.geocities.com/tkd_unknown/45.html

Page 54 explains in detail the reason why he exiled to Canada
Actually his autobiography is in 3 Volumes. But Vol. 3 was never translated into English, only Vols. # 1 & 2 were. All 3 Volumes are in Korean. I have Vol. 3, but can't read it!
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  #64  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 08:37 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
From D. Burd ick's People and Events of T'aekwondo's Formative Years (1996)
The above referenced article is good, but it contains some flaws:
"A schism between Hong-Hi Choi and the K.T.A. appeared in 1973. Choi planned to move to Toronto in 1974, and take the I.T.F. headquarters with him. Young-Wun Kim (President of the K.T.A.) was dismayed by this move, because he believed that the international headquarters of t'aekwondo should remain in Korea. As a result, Kim severed the K.T.A.'s ties to the I.T.F. and supported the formation of a new organization, the World Taekwondo Federation (W.T.F.), which was founded during the first World Taekwondo Championships held at the Kukkiwon from May 25 to May 28, 1973. The first meeting of the W.T.F was on May 26, and the organization was officially established on the last day of the championships. Choi responded by having J.C. Kim host the I.T.F.'s World Taekwon-Do Championships in Montreal in 1974, marking his determination to compete with the W.T.F. in Seoul."

The schism began always or in 1965 when Gen. Choi was voted in as the 3rd president of the K. Tae SOO Do Assoc. In January & began to pressure them to change the name to his TKD label. The civilians were not soldiers under this former General's command. They reigned free since the military revolution in 1961, running Tae SOO Do as they saw fit, which was a new unique Korean martial sport. These civilian leaders also battled with GM Hwang Ki & Dr. Yoon, not just Gen. Choi. But GM Hwang also battled with Gen. Choi & went his own way, finally suing in SK courts for the right, which he won to have his way with Su Bak Do & not come under the sports focus.
In January of 1966 the civilians pushed out Gen. Choi from the KTA helping him make the ITF. They replaced him with a north early Kwan founder, a 1st generation leader GM Ro Byung Jik. There were several attempts under the 5th KTA president a politician named Kim Yong Chae to compromise the technical format, for example a ratio or combined forms, ITF & the new KTA Palgwe forms. None of this worked. As Hen. Choi became more outspoken against the dictatorship & backed the losing opposition candidate, his days were numbered.
But Gen. Choi fled in exile in 1972, moving the ITF to Toronto Canada in 1972, not 74.
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  #65  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 08:41 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
From D. Burd ick's People and Events of T'aekwondo's Formative Years (1996)
Some other faults:
"The distance between the I.T.F. and W.T.F. widened with the years. Hong-Hi Choi publicly denounced R.O.K. President Chung-Hee Park in September, 1977, claiming that that Park was "using Taekwon-Do for his political ends." Choi also made several peace overtures towards the D.P.R.K., and in 1981 he took a demonstration team of sixteen black belts to that country for ten days. While there, he met with not only his brother (whom he had not seen for more than twenty years) and one of his aunts, but also President Il-Sung Kim, who gave such audiences only on very rare occasions. Choi today is responsible for the spread of t'aekwondo to the D.P.R.K., and works for the re-unification of Korea. As a result of his work with North Korea, some South Koreans regard him as a traitor."

Gen. Choi took the 7th ITF Demo Team to NK in Sept of 1980, not 1981. The team was not all BBs as it had a photographer with them as well. So the total was not 16, exact number escapes me.
He did reunite with several of his family members & visited his old homestead, not seeing any of them for some 35 years, very sad from a human standpoint for sure! This was an opportunity that few divided Korean families ever get & it may have been the 1st or 1 of the earliest reunions. So who could blame him? But of course many do, as it was a treasonous act!
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  #66  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 08:47 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by EternalRage View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the Korean government was responsible for some of the atrocities that they put on him. They really screwed the Moo Duk Kwan and Hwang Kee, plus they had so much corruption that it's probably true. The Korean government and their puppet the WTF more or less destroyed most of the Korean MA that came out after post occupation. They're like the Empire, complete with Death Star and star destroyers.
Yes they did screw with GM Hwang Ki. Too bad he didn't get along with Gen. Choi, they may have made a good team. You will notice many of GM Hwang Ki's detractors also question his ma background, but you never hear that about the others & what proof they had about actual ranks, etc.
But gen. Choi & GM Hwang, who didn't play ball with the civilian sports focused 2nd generation leaders, were subjected to terrible things over the years, all unfitting IMO of proper ma behavior.
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  #67  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 08:54 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by Spookey View Post
To General Choi:

Thank you for what you gave my family. In your death you stated that we no longer needed you. You stated that you had two names one granted by your family (Choi Hong Hi) and one blessed by Heaven (Taekwon-Do)...You continued to say that we no longer needed you because we are all Taekwon-Do!

For the Legacy you created and gave to my family I stand today as your prodigy. I will honor and fight to defend that which you gave to my family almost four decades ago.
(JUNG AHN BON KWAN, SEOUL KOREA DAE HAN TAEKWON-DO OH DO KWAN SABUM #520)

I AM TAEKWON-DO...TAEKWON!
Gen. Choi, because of you, I too am Taekwon-Do. My life has been made better in many positive ways due to your personal influence on me, your writings, teachings & examples. I feel that what I try to pass onto my students & juniors in some small way helps them to be better, in hopes of building a more peaceful world that you wanted.
I am certain that most, if not all parents of the children I teach are all grateful for helping them to raise better people. My adult students often thank me for my contribution, but I usually say, it is not me, it is Taekwon-Do!
Thank you Spookey for reminding me
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  #68  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 08:55 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by Ragnarok2005 View Post
Good post.
I honestly and truly respect yours [and the Generals] achievements and dedication to TKD. But don't take it so personally when I refuse to believe that a twin palm pushing block is to block a simultaneous kick and punch.
I agree as I don't think it is used for that either!
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  #69  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 09:05 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by Ragnarok2005 View Post
And it's not just the creation of Taekwon-Do. General Choi said "I despise the Japanese" and it could just be the impression I get, but from reading that link it seemed a lot more than just National Pride.

Obviously this attitude changed in his later life. But it still makes me feel uneasy about the motives for TKD's creation.
I do believe context is vitally important. For instance I am certain that what Gen. Choi hated or despised was the brutality & despicable treatment the Koreans & others (especially the Chinese in Nanking) suffered under Imperial Japan. Remember the atrocities committed during WWII. This is the context. Remember the Germans apologized for the terrible things that people could not believe really happened! The Japanese have not made peace with the Koreans yet. This is a sore point & understandable IMO.
So it was the Empire of Japan, their Imperial soldiers & brutal colonial government which looked to totally eradicate Korean culture, language & dignity, so they could forever subjugate them & totally control them as 2nd class citizens. Do you knew that still today Koreans born & raised living in Japan are not Japanese citizens, but 2nd class residents.

Hen. Choi took tremendous pride when the Japanese Team won Team Patterns at the WCs in 1988 Budapest. This was only 6-7 years after ITF TKD was introduced to Japan by the late GM PARK Jung-Tae!
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  #70  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 09:11 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by EternalRage View Post
A similar dispute comes up in the Moo Duk Kwan when questions are raised about the feasibility of GM Hwang Kee creating Tang Soo Do MDK from a couple of books and some kung fu training.
Regardless of the extent or nature of GM Hwang's ma training, education or background, he is one the most influential Korean martial artist of all time.
So I will spin this around & look at the other side of that coin:
If GM Hwang had little to no formal martial arts training, he must have been a genius, a true visionary to have created his training system of MA, with his philosophy so strongly embraced by many. His positive influence is beyond compare, surpassed only by Ben. Choi, as far as Koreans go, IMO!
(Of course Mas Oyama was Korean, but he more or less lived as a Japanese national)
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  #71  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 09:36 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by EternalRage View Post
This is something that always mind boggles me because the Korean government pressured kwans to join together to create a new Korean martial art that had could contribute to a new Korean identity, but then just ended up keeping the same traditions as Japanese Karate, from the lining up and ranking in seniority with a belt system all the way to the uniforms, and on top of that just mixed up the Heian forms to make new forms and pretty much kept the basic movements (albeit not execution) the same.
Ok context is needed here. The ROK suffered under an authoritarian regime led by a puppet pretty much installed by the U.S. because Dr. Rhee was a staunch anti-communists & they were hard to find in Korea at the end of WWII. The new ISM to be battled after NazISM, FascISM & ImperialISM was communISM. It was the stated policy of the USA called containment. It marked the entry of America as the world's policeman, ending their previously preferred isolation policy.
So after 12 years of Dr. Rhee & his corrupt Blue House, he was driven out if town in April of 1960. The govt that took over proved to be inept & SK was in fear of another invasion by the communists who may have been looking to take advantage of the chaos. So the ROK Military staged a successful coup, which Gen. Choi initially supported as it was carried out in the name of the ROK Army Chief of Staff, Lt. Gen. Chang. However Gen. Choi's junior Gen. Park, which Gen. Choi served on a military tribunal which court martial him years earlier, sentencing him to death, only to have his life spared when he turned in others, never have command to Lt. Gen. Chang.
One of the ways Gen. Park took control was to order all social organizations to regroup & consolidate so the military govt could better oversee & regulate them. Gen. Choi, like others who were not in Park's inner circle were arrested, killed, fired, disappeared or in some cases, sent overseas on diplomatic assignments while Park consolidated his power. So Gen. Choi was sent to Malaysia as Ambassador. From 62-late 65.
Afterwards Gen. Park on a trade mission to then West Germany, was greeted at the airport by TKD students sent by Gen. Choi Duk-Shin, Choi Hong Hi's sworn brother who was very supportive of TKD. At the time he was the Korean Ambassador to W. Germany as he was also not in the inner circle of the dictator Park. The inner circle was made up of the 8th Military Academy graduating class. The Gen. Choi's were the 1st class, Gen. Park was the 2nd class. The oft recognized mastermind of the coup was Col. Kim Jong-Pil, the nephew-in-law of Gen. Park & founder of the infamous KCIA. Col. Kim was the 1st honorary head of the ITF when it was formed in 1966. He was the eventual opposition candidate to Gen. Park, when Gen. Park refused to step down from office. Gen. Choi backed Col. Kim & paid the price, against the advice of Col. Nam Tae-Hi, co-founder of the OhDoKwan, who continued to back Park & was very close to park's daughter, the present day ROK president. Too bad Col. Nam passed away!
So once Gen. Park saw the Western TKD students greet him at the W. German airport with Korean flags, he saw the potential of TKD as a powerful political & cultural propaganda tool. So when he started to support TKD, he wrestled control of it away from Gen. Choi. The rest as they say is history.

This was why Gen. Choi was forced to exile, as he was a marked man. There is no doubt he would have been at least placed under house arrest or worse. Please remember 1972, when Gen. Choi fled to save his life, it was the height of the plurality of the pArk regime. He declared martial law again, he suspended the constitution again, he changed the election procedure again, insuring he would be president for life. He served from 1961 to 1979, when he was removed from office when he own KCIA director shot & killed him!
While Park is revered by many, as he was the father of the economic miracle of South Korea, his human rights abuses were terrible. So bad that U.S. President Jimmy Carter, a deeply religious man, vowed to remove U.S. Soldiers from the ROK unless Lark reformed. This resulted not in reform, but corruption influence on the U.S. Congress by the KCIA in the scandal that became known as KoreaGate. The 2nd Gate named scandal after Nixon's WaterGate!
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  #72  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 09:41 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by TraditionalTKD View Post
As I understand it, Gen. Choi was exiled from Korea for two reasons:
1. He was consistantly at odds with the political and Tae Kwon Do powers-that-be in Korea because he insisted on doing things his way. One newspaper article refered to him as the "Tae Kwon Do troublemaker".
2. He organized and led a trip to North Korea without the sanctioning of the South Korean government in the mid-sixties. I'd have to find that article but I know it's on the web somewhere. Despite how much Gen. Choi wanted to see the Koreas reconcile, Noth Korea was/is South Korea's enemy. He was/is considered a traitor by many in the South. Much like Benedict Arnold here.
#2 is factually incorrect. Gen. Choi exiled in 1972. He took the 7th ITF TKD Demo Team to NK in 1980 as a Canadian citizen. At the time it was a capital offense for South Koreans to go to NK. After he handed TKD, such a powerful political & cultural propaganda tool to NK, it was considered treason by many in SK & unforgivable. But this took place years after Gen. Choi fled to safety in the West. It was also years after a total onslaught from the KCIA at the hands of the dictatorship(s) broke the ITF down to almost nothing. Going to NK saved the ITF.
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  #73  
Old 30-Aug-2014, 09:51 PM
TKDstudent TKDstudent is offline
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Originally Posted by Earl Weiss View Post
The General Choi haters like to recite part of a stroy in an attempt to discredit him.

Another popular one is reciting the story about Sun Duc Son demoting him and expelling him from the Chung Do Kwan but leaving out:

1. The newspaper advertisement taken out by Sun Duc Son was done after he had already been removed as head of the CDK; and
2. The very same ad listed the expulsion of Nam TAe Hi and Uhm Woon Kyo, and it is know that GM Nam remained a respected member of the CDK until he died and GM Uhm was president from that time for over 5 decades while GM Sun was forever gone.

The events listed at #2 speak volumes for the purported actions of GM Son, and their effect yet they conspicuosly absent when the actions of the article are listed to discredit General Choi.
Yes & these accounts also conveniently leave out the motivation for GM Son's hard feelings toward Gen. Choi, which was - He (GM Son) was not allow on the historic TKD Demo Team that Gen. Choi led to Vietnam & Taiwan in March of 1959. This was the 1st time TKD was performed outside of Korea. GM Son wanted to go, but it was a Military TKD Team. GM Son was sore, as many of the team members were from his ChungDoKwan. He also was being marginalized by Gen. Choi. Those that knew Gen. Choi realized he was the boss, driven to succeed, with a more than healthy sized ego. He even marginalized the CDK Founder GM Lee Won-Kuk. Gen. Choi's Calligraphy was all over the CDK, his influence literally stared you in your face!
Demo - March 1959
June 4, 1959 notice statement given to Uhm Woon-Gyu which essentially replaced GM Son. Sgt. Uhm Woon-Gyu was supported by Gen. Choi to lead the CDK.
June 15, 1959 an all ready marginalized & replaced GM Son makes the declaration that in reality had no effect.
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  #74  
Old 31-Aug-2014, 03:04 PM
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Spookey Spookey is offline
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I am Taekwon-Do

Quote:
Gen. Choi, because of you, I too am Taekwon-Do. My life has been made better in many positive ways due to your personal influence on me, your writings, teachings & examples. I feel that what I try to pass onto my students & juniors in some small way helps them to be better, in hopes of building a more peaceful world that you wanted.
I am certain that most, if not all parents of the children I teach are all grateful for helping them to raise better people. My adult students often thank me for my contribution, but I usually say, it is not me, it is Taekwon-Do!
Thank you Spookey for reminding me
My goodness has time passed, this thread started almost a decade ago...having seen the plight and heard the philosophy of many of the Taekwon-Do pioneers. I have to say that I am forever honored that God provided me this relationship with Taekwon-Do. It began with my Father through GM Kim, Bo Kyum & Gen. Choi, and has now carried on to my future generations.

"Taekwon-Do Student" if we have met before I certainly hope we meet again. If you are not who I think you are, it would still be an honor to meet you one day. I appreciate your wealth of knowledge and commitment to Taekwon-Do Chang-Heon.

Taekwon!
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  #75  
Old 31-Aug-2014, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TKDstudent View Post
The above referenced article is good, but it contains some flaws:
"A schism between Hong-Hi Choi and the K.T.A. appeared in 1973. Choi planned to move to Toronto in 1974, and take the I.T.F. headquarters with him. Young-Wun Kim (President of the K.T.A.) was dismayed by this move, because he believed that the international headquarters of t'aekwondo should remain in Korea. As a result, Kim severed the K.T.A.'s ties to the I.T.F. and supported the formation of a new organization, the World Taekwondo Federation (W.T.F.), which was founded during the first World Taekwondo Championships held at the Kukkiwon from May 25 to May 28, 1973. The first meeting of the W.T.F was on May 26, and the organization was officially established on the last day of the championships. Choi responded by having J.C. Kim host the I.T.F.'s World Taekwon-Do Championships in Montreal in 1974, marking his determination to compete with the W.T.F. in Seoul."

The schism began always or in 1965 when Gen. Choi was voted in as the 3rd president of the K. Tae SOO Do Assoc. In January & began to pressure them to change the name to his TKD label. The civilians were not soldiers under this former General's command. They reigned free since the military revolution in 1961, running Tae SOO Do as they saw fit, which was a new unique Korean martial sport. These civilian leaders also battled with GM Hwang Ki & Dr. Yoon, not just Gen. Choi. But GM Hwang also battled with Gen. Choi & went his own way, finally suing in SK courts for the right, which he won to have his way with Su Bak Do & not come under the sports focus.
In January of 1966 the civilians pushed out Gen. Choi from the KTA helping him make the ITF. They replaced him with a north early Kwan founder, a 1st generation leader GM Ro Byung Jik. There were several attempts under the 5th KTA president a politician named Kim Yong Chae to compromise the technical format, for example a ratio or combined forms, ITF & the new KTA Palgwe forms. None of this worked. As Hen. Choi became more outspoken against the dictatorship & backed the losing opposition candidate, his days were numbered.
But Gen. Choi fled in exile in 1972, moving the ITF to Toronto Canada in 1972, not 74.
Quote:
Some other faults:
"The distance between the I.T.F. and W.T.F. widened with the years. Hong-Hi Choi publicly denounced R.O.K. President Chung-Hee Park in September, 1977, claiming that that Park was "using Taekwon-Do for his political ends." Choi also made several peace overtures towards the D.P.R.K., and in 1981 he took a demonstration team of sixteen black belts to that country for ten days. While there, he met with not only his brother (whom he had not seen for more than twenty years) and one of his aunts, but also President Il-Sung Kim, who gave such audiences only on very rare occasions. Choi today is responsible for the spread of t'aekwondo to the D.P.R.K., and works for the re-unification of Korea. As a result of his work with North Korea, some South Koreans regard him as a traitor."

Gen. Choi took the 7th ITF Demo Team to NK in Sept of 1980, not 1981. The team was not all BBs as it had a photographer with them as well. So the total was not 16, exact number escapes me.
He did reunite with several of his family members & visited his old homestead, not seeing any of them for some 35 years, very sad from a human standpoint for sure! This was an opportunity that few divided Korean families ever get & it may have been the 1st or 1 of the earliest reunions. So who could blame him? But of course many do, as it was a treasonous act!
It's been quite a while since we've visited this topic.

I do like the Dakin Burd ick article, even though it is a bit dated now (18 years old). I also like that in the article he provides his sources.

In that vein, can you cite sources for the 'faults' you mention in the Burd ick article? Don't get me wrong, I like the info and I trust you as a source, but I would like to know where your info is coming from (to compare to Burd ick's source)

Thanks
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