I was asking for clarification for better understanding, I've had experience with schools that were McDojo's and they played the same game as you guys. I've asked honest questions that none of you will or can answer, thus the proof lies in the fact that there is something not on the level with your school. I show respect to all martial artists, schools and styles that are on the level, if you ask them a question or for proof they would never turn you down or avoid the answer, you guys don't follow that rule thus you deserve little respect. I had no problem with you guys untill you started in on me and started insulting me, you have no respect your style is a lie and your master a liar. I challenge Moore to tell me the truth, to verify if it is real or if he's the biggest fraud since santa claus. If he won't or can't or if you guys won't or can't, then you prove that you are a false system, that you are liars, that you are frauds and those of you who believe this fantasy story should get a dose of reality and learn a real Chinese Martial Art, not this fantasy Moore created. Well, I'm waiting...
It's, as I said earlier and you all apparently didn't bother reading, a matter of PRIDE. I would never train under a liar or someone who creates a false lineage the legitimize an art. Been there, done that, NEVER AGAIN. It destroys any and all credibility the system has, especially when practitioners come on making outlandish claims of being able to beat 10 guys and can't even properly describe basic stances. And as I said before, sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending these issues don't exist won't make us respect you any more than we do. It's always the same thing... we ask questions or raise issues, and you tell us how great your system is and how dumb we are. Get a new beef. Either answer the points or just go away. Really, we'll be much better off without the specter of a fake art hanging over this forum.
yuuuup --- Yes, all I know of about Shou Shu, I've learned from Shou Shu people here, ex-Shou Shu people and Lee Waters. But guess what, each time a valid question about Shou Shu's history was asked, either the Shou Shu people disappeared or they went ninja-like with the question dodging. What we're seeing here is pretty sad; we're seeing normal, honest folks being decieved by a likely fraud. You cannot see it, as you're too close to the problem and seem to lack understanding about chinese society (and how the story we've heard so far is utterly impossible). But we have external perspective, and can see that clearly. So let me reiterate my question: what would we need to show or tell you in order to make you doubt? There, I made it big so you won't dodge it this time. Well, the site says 26,000 something members, but that also includes ex members, and does not include unregistered lurkers. But Alexa's Reach rating says 15 internet users out of 1,000,000 read MAP. If we join that with the 1,000,000,000 estimated internet users, there are about 15,000 MAP users. I'd argue that there are probably more people with a phonebook than that. They know the Moores did kempo, and all we've seen about Shou Shu so far is glorified kempo. Indeed, we can't prove that there ISN'T any secret chinese training or whatnot. But we can point out that it's unlikely. You are asking too much of LW; proving a negative is almost impossible. The burden of proof is on you. LW supplied the questions, now we're still waiting for the answers (but please, answer my previous question first). Puh-leese. This is nothing like that.
Yeah I know I know.. I don't know why I try, if its not on the net, it has to be not true- If I really looked for the info or asked for it i'm sure its not an issue.. but you guys still wouldn't be happy with the proof. See-ya!
I would, that's all I was asking for, untill you and yours decided to insult me and keep that BS up. Give me the proof and I will openly say right here that you provided the resources and knowledge to back up your claims and that you guys are all right. But as far as the insults go, you made a real bad choice with me, it'll cost you unless I get an apology.
Look at the posts of you and yours, on this thread and on others. And yet you still haven't answered my questions or given me a contact from your style that I could talk to to see if your claims were real, so does your comment then apply to you as well?
We have updated the blog, with just questions, e-mails and opinions, please read and decide your own opinions. pro or con. Again, this was not to degrade Shou Shu practioners or their art, Just the history and claims. http://shoushuhistory.myblogvoice.com/ Best Wishes L.W. DBA, The Troll The END!
Sorry you think I was refering to you personally. However, I never studied Shou Shu, some of my friends did back in the 70's and 80's. I was at at a Kenpo school. The Kenpo I've studied is not not Shou Shu. If they took kenpo and changed it, I for one am impressed. I don't know Moore's history,nor do I care, I just know that my friends were good martial artists and good people. Found this thread then a bunch of others and my history with Shou Shu black belts and others in the system is completely different than the bs the people on this and other sites are making of their art. Why they feel the need to debate or answer questions from people is beyond me. These sites are not that important. The information on them is more often wrong than right. If someone from Shou Shu said it was night, everyone would tell them its day. If they posted a photo, everyone would claim it was doctured. People attack just to attack, that is what these forums are. No more or less than that. Just standing up for my old friends. It was almost fun.I see that it is pointless now. Think I'll do something worthwhile now, I'll go pick my kids from school and take them to the park. Enjoy your pointless crusade.
By the way, I think this is a classy way to end this thread. Just as in politics, religion, science, or anything else, we should all evaluate the evidence and come to our own conslusions. This is what I tell my high school students when it comes to really important matters such as creationism vs. evolution or relatively trivial matters such as, this or that system is legit vs this or that system is not legit.
Lee Waters laurel.schmolze@gmail.com <laurel.schmolze@gmail.com> Laurel Schmolze Low Orange Monterey School 4 months.... and counting http://shoushu.blogspot.com Occupation: Teacher by day, Super Girl by night. I'm a teacher of 1st graders. THIS IS WHO LEE WATERS AND TRUTHSEEKER ACTUALLY IS... A WHINING COMPLAINING WOMAN!!!
Wrong Again! Please dont add harassment to your Bio, Mr. Vargus of New Hope, Don't know why you picked on this young lady, maybe because she teaches and knows how to study,But you are wrong, and their is three of us writing! hell my spelling should tell you im no teacher, a gentelmen would edit that post. But we did find another 8 DegreeTracy System / Police Officer that knew Al Moore when he started in the Tracy system. Master Ted Sumner http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/ Master Sumner Bio. Has anyone heard of Al Moore. Dec 13 2004 Ted Sumner on Shou Shu: Quote: "Though what they taught had it's base in Kenpo, it was their own adulterant version of the art which they called Shou Shu" End Quote! Thank you Ted. I heard that Al Sr. passed away a few years ago. Moores seem to have about 15 school through out Ca. Some people say that al Sr. trained in China after world Warll for a period of time. do you know if that is true? Not to my knowledge! I have never heard anything to that effect. They pretty much looked like average beginners when they started.(TED SUMNER) http://www.network54.com/Forum/326583/thread/1102959584/Has+anyone+heard+of+Al+Moore. And Mr Vargus, the Richard Lee organization did reply. Quote: " First West Wind and some other schools that teach a Bok Fu Do like system, have very limited connection to our school or grandmaster Richard Lee, these schools were started by people whom at one time or another studied at East-West, and some never even achieved their black belt,. They decided to go into business for themselves and start their own schools. This gentelman says you may contact him for more information, He is a instructor from the Richard Lee East-West lineage school. http://www.karatekorner.com/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=27&Topic=3729&keywords=shou shu My apology to the young Lady in the prior post. L.W. And to all. THE END, Please Saz I put a link to our blog in SO Lock it up! Don't want some young Lady harassed over a MA debate!!! http://shoushuhistory.myblogvoice.com/
Now that's just plain ridiculous of you, Black Armor. You're not doing Shou Shu any service by your behavior here. Mods!
Black Armor, you are running dangerously close to harrassment, you are of course more than entitled to your own opinion and CONTRUCTIVE critism. However, keep it clean everyone or I'll take things further! Thanks.
Just For Fun! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/im.../104-0107435-1606306?ie=UTF8&n=404272&s=video What can one say!! L.W.
