Black belts. (WTF)

[tkderf]

This weekend we (Montreal) are hosting a tournament for TKD WTF. There is a few teams from USA and Mexico and i was really surprised to find out very young poeple with very high dan grading. I've seen some poeple that are clearly under 16 years old being 3rd and even 4th dan. Not to mention that their physical shape and general performance was very questionable.

In some other thread, some poeple mentioned that 4th dan + instructors where able to promote black belts and give dan. If you read the Kukkiwon rules, poeple who get their 3rd dan has to be 18 years old and above... That makes me wonder, if these poeple are kukkiwon approved? In my country a black belt can only be given by the great master of my province, and i totally agree with this system, that reduce the chances of corruption. And keep a better control/standard of promotions.

there is a few things I would like to know and debate with you all..
first where are you from? how does black belt system works in your country? Do you beleive that every black belts should be given by a great master and approved by the kukkiwon for the WTF? why?

Thanks everyone!

[Kwajman]

Man, this story has been beat to death. But I think that as a rule very young black belts just aren't a real good idea. A sign of a McDojo. I was at a tournament today also and there was an 8 year old second dan. Good grief, I didn't know whether to bow or to puke....

[neryo_tkd]

8 years old.....second dan??????????????????????????????

u must be joking????????????????????

by the age of 20 he will probably have the 10th dan

[Artikon]

Salut and welcome to the boards TKDerf

Okay just in support of young black belts . . . If you have a child who starts TKD training at the age of say 6, and then at 12 he earns his first poome, is he any different than say an adult who starts at 19 and earns their first dan at 25? They have both put in the same amount of time. They are able to do the same things. What is the difference?

Differences of course are physical development and maturity level, but look at the junior who has studied TKD for half their life. When they start, they are the epitomy of being a white belt with no pre-concieved notions because they essentially are to young to have any. The adult has already experienced some of the world and probably does have some ideas of the stereotypes of MA. Does this hinder or enhance their training in comparrision to the JR.

Now my question is why should you hold a young person back if they are able to do the same techniques, have the same understanding, and show a developing maturity, the same as an adult?

I do agree that not all children show the maturity to hold the rank of poome and that responsiblitiy for deciding if they show the proper maturity is up to their instructor. I don't feel its fair however, to judge from the outside since you don't have the relationship that the instructor and student have. My personal experience is I have a young kid I coach and teach who is 13 and has just finished testing for his 2nd poome. He is by far the most mature kid I have ever met or known, and has the physical ability and understanding of an adult of the same rank and has been training in TKD for more than half his life. Should you hold him back simply because of his age?

Now for the kids you saw under 16 who held the 3rd and 4th dan . . . they were probably poome rankings which are essentially JR black belts. They have yet to recieve a Dan ranking which means they aren't able to promote and also lose some other advantages that an adult will have. However they are still considered a black belt.

Now I'm not exactly sure what you mean by great master. Do you mean Grand Master, or what dan ranking are you getting at? Regardless in your province the norm is probably having a single person sign everyone off, but that is your province and not the rest of the country. Each province has their own system of doing the dan testing, whether it happens at the school through the head master or through the provincial governing body. Personally I like the idea having a chief instructor having to witness a test before a dan application is sent to Kukkiwon, in fact that is similar to the system we have in place, but ours I think is slightly different.

Anyways welcome to the boards again TKDerf

[Kwajman]

Neryo, no joke, I pointed him out to one of my instructors and said that there had to be a catch. All he would say is, yes he is very talented, but apparently there was a long story to go with it....son of an instructor or something.....

[Thomas]

According to Tae Kwon Do Textbook vol. III by Kim Jeong-Rok, Seolim Publishing (in English and Korean): 1994, which contains the rules and regulations of the WTF and Kukkiwon:

(1) "Poom is given to those under 15 years old and dan is for 15 years old and above" (p. 371) Students under 15 should wear the red and black "poom belt" and dan holders wear black.

(2) Age Limits for Promotion (pp. 370-371) :
1st Poom : less than 15
1st Poom to 2nd Poom: less than 15 years old
2nd Poom to 3rd Poom: less than 15 years old
(If started at Poom, promotion is as follows
1st dan to 2nd dan : 15 years and above
2nd dan to 3rd dan: 15 years and above
3rd dan to 4th dan: 18 years and above
4th dan to 5th dan: 22 years and above
5th dan to 6th dan : 30 years and above
6th dan to 7th dan: 36 years and above
7th dan to 8th dan: 44 years and above
8th dan to 9th dan: 53 years and above
9th dan to 10th dan: 60 years and above

+++If you start at 1st dan (adult, here are the age limits) :
1st dan: 15 years and above
1st dan to 2nd dan : 16 years and above
2nd dan to 3rd dan: 18 years and above
3rd dan to 4th dan: 21 years and above
4th dan to 5th dan: 25 years and above
5th dan to 6th dan : 30 years and above
6th dan to 7th dan: 36 years and above
7th dan to 8th dan: 44 years and above
8th dan to 9th dan: 53 years and above
9th dan to 10th dan: 60 years and above

[Kwajman]

Hey Thomas, your preaching to the choir here. I'd like to find out who's his instructor and mail him your post with a few comments. Talk about watering down the system huh...

[Kof_Andy]

Haha teenage 4th dan? No way. There definitly not approved by kukiwon, perhaps preapproved by Mc Dojo maybe. There are no exception to skip the kukiwon requirement, dosent matter if your son of bruce lee, or founder of taekwondo. I agree age dosent present it all, some young one does have exceptional ability and very mature/well behaved. However you have to prove to kukiwon your worthy of the rank before you test tho. For example if you got 1st place at olympic game, world championship, or publish a decent martial book, you will be approved by kukiwon to skip the waiting duration before your next test. Otherwise there are no shortcute.

[Artikon]

Thomas there was an addition since 1994 to the poome rankings.
There is also a 4th poome level where the individual must be under 18 to be awarded this rank.

This is from the kukkiwon website. I'm not exactly sure when the 4th poome was created but I think it has only been within the last number of years.

And Kwajman . . . I'd like to know how you feel this is watering down the system?

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Artikon
Thomas there was an addition since 1994 to the poome rankings.
There is also a 4th poome level where the individual must be under 18 to be awarded this rank.

This is from the kukkiwon website. I'm not exactly sure when the 4th poome was created but I think it has only been within the last number of years.

Thanks... I'll put in in the margin of the text.

[tkderf]

Sorry i meant grand master, i am french native so bare with my word-to-word translation sometime .

I beleive that age does'nt matter for black belt also, i had mine at 12 years old and i really was ready for it... the point of my post what about dan. How can a 15 year's old kid have 4 dan? Even if he had his black belt at 10... he would still be 2nd... max 3rd.

The one i saw had a black belt (not poom red&black), he was about 14 year's old and he was 3rd dan. If he was in great shape and really impressed me during his fight i would've say 'ok, this guy deserved it'... but he was in very bad shape, could'nt follow the beat of a 1st poom, he even puked between the 1st and 2nd round. I don't know if he did that because of stress or bad cardio, but both situation are unacceptable for a 3rd dan.

[labeledas]

i was there to was a great weekend, you see the heavy weight fight that ended real quick i blinked and missed it, guess the guy lost a couple teeth i have the tape and am gonna watch it tonight

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Kwajman
I was at a tournament today also and there was an 8 year old second dan. Good grief, I didn't know whether to bow or to puke....

some people say that age is not important, but let's think about this kid a lil bit. 8 years old - 2nd dan. he got his 1st dan when...at the age of 6? when did he start training TKD? at the age of 2 or 3???? how logical is that????

[Taeho]

Yeah, I agree with neryo, age isn't important, but lets get real. It should take many years of dedicated training to achieve 2 nd Dan+. I just can't beleive that a 8 yr old has the mental capacity to understand what being a higher Dan is supposed to represent. Does an 8 yr old comprehend this? I doubt it. To most juniors it's just a trophy to wear, IMHO.

When our 12 year old black belts transfer over to the adult class from the juniors, they usually have a rude awakening. It's like going from daycare to bootcamp, with nothing in between. LOL

TKDshane Ÿ

[neryo_tkd]

and once again we agree TKDshane

concerning the transfer, the same thing happens here. the kids can't wait to get transfered, but when they do...reality check!