UFC as Sport

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by bencole, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Adding them is fine its the making them work thats hard this is what MMA does. Many progressive trad schools cover ground work now but its shoddy at best, at least they are trying which I commend them for and there aim is slightly different but its the blend (as Aikido people say) that makes it usable.
     
  2. xen

    xen insanity by design

    yeah, it does.

    my only point on the above is where you talk about ninjutsu training not focusing on training to force it on someone who doesn't want it.

    that is very true.

    that doesn't mean a well trained practioner will neccesarily be incapable of 'forcing against resistance', it just highlights the fundamental difference in stratergy which many of us have been trying to express.

    i'll try putting the idea across from another way, what i'm attempting to do is share the mindset.

    my old boy is a very practical man. He's a mech engineer, he's always 'doing'.

    when i was a kid, i used to watch him solve problems, and his lateral thinking skills are really something else.

    once he was fixing something and he hits a sticking point in the job, i offered a few suggestions, but each was rejected.

    i ask him why. he says;

    'each of those might well work, but they aren't the most efficient solution, engineers are hard-working but lazy'

    i didn't get what he meant, so he explained,

    'don't make work for yourself, people will find enough for you to do in life, you don't make each job more difficult by choosing the sub-optimal solution. its better to walk away and do something else until you find the best solution for the job you're stuck on, than go at with it a shoddy plan or a guess'

    thats the first 'scene-setter'...

    the wider scope of the work i'm currently involved in is 'adaptive behaviour'

    adaptive behaviour is what has allowed us to evolve and survive through successive generations.

    its what allows us to cope with an ever-changing world that never quite presents us with the same set of conditions we've met before.

    by not forming fixed stratergies we can remain fluid and responsive to the moment, we can adapt to the world as it changes and we can modify our behaviour according to our current needs and goals, taking into account the constraints our local environment places upon us.

    in short, if we meet resistance in life, we can find a way round it, rather than through it.

    in evolutionary terms, it is those traits which have survived through generations and which have allowed us as a species to develop the natural capabilities to re-stratergise and to adapt to the ever-changing sets of problems we face in life.

    -----

    bringing this down to the problem of throwing a resisting opponent...why bother forcing it?

    trying to fight resistance is a sub-optimal solution, it tires us, it puts us at greater risk and if the size and strength of our opponent seriously outclasses us, we have little chance of overcoming our opponent by trying to force through resistance.

    thats why judo comps are divided into weight divisions.

    our training is about developing more efficient solutions that don't rely on battles of will or strength, they rely on developing the skills of movement, adaptability and lateral thinking.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2006
  3. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned


    very interesting, but intelectualising abour martials arts is pointless,

    MMA training is efficient and tangible and contains many subtlies, as does Judo the main principle of Judo is that of Ju yielding going with the flow being like water.
     
  4. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    No offence dude...but that's the main principle of almost every TMA...jeet kwon do, aikido, WC, BBT...whats your point there? (Apart from the fact that just making that statement, your intelectualising abour martials arts...lol)

    then again...what exactly do you percieve a martial arts forum to be, if not a place for Martial artists to intelectualise abour martials arts...its not like I can email you an axekick! (only chuck can do that)
    :eek:
     
  5. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Yes, this all comes down to how you train your taijutsu. If you train to resist the throw/takedown and have your throw resisted, you'll find that a bujinkan throw can be very effective and very brutal...
    I don't know if I would be able to say the same if I learnt to throw with a compliant uke, only because a situation never arose for me to try when I was the earlier bujinkan school...
     
  6. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    but that is the principle of Ju the Ju in Judo and Jujitsu, flexability yealding etc, sure other martial include this, but Ju is the main principle of Judo and Jujutsu

    Jujutsu Flexible Yealding Art etc
    Judo Flexible Yealding Way

    other arts may cover this but may also include other principles

    there is little to be gained in terms of Martial Arts Skills by intelectualising about martial arts on the net, to much of that is so bad for your training, you need to train for real not fall into the trap of being an internet fantasy martial artist, train for real.

    lofty principles are one thing, but can you do it can you make it work for real ?
     
  7. xen

    xen insanity by design

    LMAO.

    i guess that means the 'The Book of Five Rings' or 'The Art of War' were written by LARPers then? :rolleyes:

    then why are you wasting your time reading my words... get your ass down the dojo and do something more productive with your time.

    if it wasn't for those of us on here who took the time to intellectualise about our training experiences, then there wouldn't be anything for you to critically analyse with such insightful depth :p

    i first started martial arts when i was 10.

    i'm 33 now.

    i train twice a week at a dojo.

    i used to fight for my county when i was 15.

    in those 23 years, i've spent 6 of them not actually training, between finishing judo and starting ninjutsu.

    During that time i spent most of my free-time hanging off a motorbike at ridiculous speeds, which is a form of training in its own right.

    admitedly, i'm not putting in nearly as many hours as i'd like in my own time at the moment, because my life is pretty busy right now.

    so when i'm stuck at the computer waiting for computer models to render, or i'm doing any other of the countless things my work involves, i leave MAP running in the background, cos its a nice distraction which keeps me sane, gives me the opportunity to read and learn about all the other martial arts in the world, and gives me the chance to explore my ideas about things in an environment where i get feedback, rather than just swimming around in my own thoughts.

    so thats my excuse...

    what are you on here for?

    it really makes me laugh when people on-line criticise other people for being on-line and suggesting that they are 'fantasy' martial artists... :rolleyes:

    you clearly failed to grasp the point of my post, even though i took the time to really try and explain the mindset...

    sonshu made a good post, but in that post was a comment about forcing and resistance.

    ninjutsu has a really clear attitude regarding the illogical approach of using physical strength to fight through resistance.

    that attitude is a tangible. It is something that get highlighted throughout a persons training career.

    if MMA is looking to maximise its effectiveness and you are an MMA practioner looking to mix some skills from many arts to maximise your own effectiveness, then instead of coming on this forum and telling us what MMA is all about, why don't try listening to us when we offer insight into what our art is all about...

    you never know, some of this 'intellectualising' might just be the product of some pretty intense applied thought following some pretty intense training experiences

    if i want to learn about MMA, i go and read the MMA forum, i don't post there, i listen, and learn about what the people are sharing of their own training experiences.

    just like i do with silat, aikido, karate, judo (i do drop the odd post there now and then for old times sake), kung fu etc etc etc

    what i don't do is go to their forums dropping lines that sound like they've come out of a fortune cookie :)
     
  8. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    they are not really about martial arts though are they, in the heat of the moment you have no time to remember something from a book you read

    just something to do really, but i dont really expect to learn anything practical here,

    good i am glad i made you laugh, i am not critising anyone for being online, but if you want to learn about martial arts you need to train, its a practical discipline not an intelectual one.

    i am listening, but why should i go else where, this is a public forum is it not.

    i am learning about MMA, but i learn at a gym, not on the net


    this is a public forum, not a hidden ninja only forum.
     
  9. xen

    xen insanity by design

    first, I was a bit harsh, my bad.

    I wasn't saying you should go away and I really didn't mean to give that impression.

    that said, this thread and others of this ilk, are full of posts trying to tell us about MMA and how its training methods are so much more 'real' than ours.

    my point was simply that I don't see many of us doing the same, and touring other forums, criticising their training methods.

    I was addressing those comments generally, not to you and I should have made that clear in my post.

    -------

    re; those books.

    have you read them?

    the art of war is about the most well-known miltary strategy manual that has been written

    the book of five rings is the distillation of experience into knowledge by a warrior with a pretty impressive 'real-world' score sheet

    to say that reading, understanding and applying the wisdom of those works to ones own relationship to the MA is not going to be beneficial doesn't ring true with me at all.

    -------

    its a shame you haven't learnt anything practical here.

    I think this site is full of valuable info.

    I have picked up loads of practical advice from health/fitness/diet to how different arts approach situations to legal aspects of self-defence etc etc.

    ----------

    I do train, so does everone else who posts regularly on this forum. We all know that the training is the most important (and most enjoyable) thing, but training the mind is a much a part of it as training the body, as is sharing and communicating experience, that way we all learn more and can avoid pitfalls that others have already found solutions to.

    -----------

    to quote the 32nd soke of togakure ryu

    "hold in your heart the importance of family loyalty, and pursue the literary and martial arts with balanced determination"

    --------

    :)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2006
  10. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Isn't that also one of the ley princaples of akido..and also a key principle of Jeet Kwon Do? Actually I watched a interview with Bruce Lee where he states it to be a key principal of his style.
    To quote Bruce Lee "My style must be like water. Water is soft yet water can be hard, water can flow, but it also can crash. Put water in a glass, it becomes the glass, put water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot, be like water my friend, be like water."
    ...anyway... now that we have established that...what does that have to do with the price of fish?

    Then why are YOU here?

    Yes I can. Have I tried and tested it? Yes I have? Do I still try and test it? Yes I do. Does that have anything to do with a debate on a forum? No not really. So what's your point exactly? Have you got an intellectual response or are you going to just show us your handbag picture again? LOL
     
  11. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    whats jeet kwon do?
    do you mean jeet kune do?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2006
  12. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    yeah sorry
    I'm an illiterate *******!
    my bad
     
  13. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook


    I think in all honesty it again comes back to train how you fight and provided you can intercept a situation before it becomes physical then fine and Ninjutsu is good for this. When it becomes violent then you are out of time to rationalise and you are against a resisting and angry person so you need to train to this level. My views as I found most of the people I trained Ninjutsu with did clam up when confrontation happened or just stood there and covered up - this is not a dig its just my findings.
     
  14. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    it was in response to a post where judo and the use of strength was mentioned, so i was trying to illustrate what judo actualy means, thats the Ju in Judo and Jujutsu. it not worth going on about really.


    more of a social thing really.

    everything, this is about UFC etc, the debate on this forum seems to have meandered so far away from the original post, anyway i felt it was relevant.


    there is no need for handbags yet, but if confronted with a handbag then you never know.
     
  15. xen

    xen insanity by design

    thats fair enough, if thats your experience then i'm not going to argue with it.

    and i can see that as being a problem IF people have never involved themselves with training against resistance.

    but training against resistance (IMHO) doesn't mean you should end up trying to force something, if i was walking down the street and there was a great big rock in the middle of the pavement, i'd look to go over it or around it... if i just kept trying to walk forward, i wouldn't get very far.

    for myself, i know that in comparison to my instructor, i wouldn't be able to get the same results in the same situation, if my initial response didn't have the desired effect, i may well have to fall back onto more 'direct' methods and then it would come down to who won the 'fight'...

    but that isn't a failing of the art or the training, or even myself really, its just i'm at a certain point in my training now and i still have a long way to go, but i'm closer to the 'ideal' than i was 5 years ago.

    its for that reason that we (speaking of our dojo) try and train people to be capable of 'fighting' in the traditional sense of the word, while also training them not to, if that makes sense.

    again, it comes down to individual dojo's and the approach they take.

    my instructor casts his net wide, he's very open-minded about all martial arts, he used to attend a kick-boxing club which trained fighters for the ring, and he would learn and train with them in their competetive training and then share with them the approach that our art takes to things.

    i think i might have said this before, but something he said to me years ago was, 'never be egotistical about the art you practice'

    ---

    final point, i wasn't talking previously about using movement, adaptability and lateral thinking before the violence starts (although, of course, that is always preferable if possible) i was talking about developing the taijutsu to be able to express those qualities during the conflict.

    so if the agressor want to move you to position x, y, or z, let them, but have a surprise waiting for them for when you both arrive :)
     
  16. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Xen

    I know where your coming from and it is a common train of thought shared by the Ninjutsu and Aikido schools.

    Judo is not the blunt force instrument people think it is (as we are discussing the throwing compairsons) I remember being schooled by a British national Judo team guy with the softest sweep ever and as I got up shook his hand and hung my head in shame it amazed me how skillfull he and others were. It adapts all the Godai principals to the way it works and is not just (taking Ninjutsu terms) all Earth and nothing else.

    Judo and many others arts fall into the Godai mindset I think just about all do and the aim of Judo is to manover and put yourself in the best position all the time offereing offence whilst maintaining your defence.

    I think as imporantly the offering of attacks in martial arts its the defence I look for. With compliance you can get it right 90% of the time with some practice but its when the fists are flying in you need to shortcut a perfect technique to a get the job done element.

    For me using my expeirence it is not too often in many schools where I am put under that pressure where I need to get the JOB DONE rather than looking good for the aproval of my instructor.

    What I do is anything but pretty but its simple, easy and realistic enough to work. For me the mindset with MMA and other sporting arts is learn the technqiue then practice having to adapt what you are doing to get the result. I never really had to do this much (minor tweak here and there) in Ninjutsu or Aikido and it was job done.

    Attacker does couple of fudo-kens and the odd zenpo geri and bish bosh bash I defend and he is ass up on the floor. With the MMA aspect I get similar things but at the end of the class its hunting season and he is resiting, not using a classical stance etc and its 100 miles an hour pace (not power) and I learn better this way and its more akin to combat.

    Hope this is clear to follow :)
     
  17. xen

    xen insanity by design

    :)

    judo has a lot to offer.

    i took up judo as a kid (back in 83 :eek: ) and loved the fact that we got to 'fight'; all the other martial arts around the local area at the time were no contact striking arts, or light touch points sparring at best, but judo was more physical; i started doing local comps got the odd trophy, got pwnd more often (you know how it is :D)

    then a guy from an affiliated club in a nearby town started a county kids team, and our dojo used to go down and train with his lot on sundays and i did about half a dozen comps at county level, team events, again, got a few points, got some lessons in where i needed to improve my game from others :eek:

    aside from the fun of the comps, the guys who taught us were spot on, really into the art as well as the sport and i owe them loads in terms what i learnt about MA's and the postive attitude their enthusiasm encouraged made it a really enjoyable part of my early teens.

    i agree, there is alot of subtlety that gets missed in judo, from the development of balance (maintaining your own and taking your opponents) to the ground-fighting aspects, locks chokes etc.

    a line from Sun Tzu just jumped into my head reading that...

    Invincibility is a matter of defence
    Vulnerability is a matter of attack


    I can see where you are coming from here and i think its a danger area that people have to be aware of.

    When we get noobs, they often want to 'fight' and they get a bit confused why they aren't 'fighting' straight away. The route my instructors take is to make sure we have started to learn the core ideas about movement before transfering it to more resistive training;

    like i say, one of our guys is more than qualified to teach people how to spar competetively and he takes charge teaching people how to move in that environment, but if he started teaching them that from day 1, they wouldn't be practicing what they have come to our dojo to learn, they could go to anyone of the excellent kick-boxing clubs in the town for that.

    so he makes the effort to make sure that they are begining to understand taijutsu and once he can see that they are making progress in that area, he works one-on-one with people to transfer those priniciples into their 'fighting' game, all the while making sure they recognise that the last thing they should be doing is falling into that 'punch-trading, bout mindset' if they get in strife outside the dojo.

    he always gets me to introduce people to nage-waza because he always says he learnt how to approach randori from me (i wish i'd kept that one hidden, cos he punishes me EVERY time in that area now :bang: :bang: :bang: )

    i try to get people really drilled on the basics of grips, footwork and fludity, making sure they understand how to control their own descent and move from being thrown into a strong ground fighting position.

    back to your point about the set-ups...

    we are sort of forced into a year that does that type of work through the winter, with the more free-flowing, unpredicatable 'alive' training through the summer months.

    their is a reason for this, our dojo floor is smooth painted concrete and we're too poor to buy mats ( :cry: ) well, not really, we haven't got anywhere to put them :D

    so we've got some old knackered ones and a crash mat, but generally, we're training on a concrete floor through the winter. In the summer we train in the field out the back by the river, so then we train with more variety.

    Unless students have really good ukemi, we don't let them near randori at anything like full pace on that floor, just 'cos we have first aid-training doesn't mean we want to use it; so we use the time to work on developing good control and as we are teaching the students how to move, using one or two shot compliant attacks works.

    It serves two purposes; it allows the us to focus on the core skills and develop spatial awareness, balance, counters ,ukemi etc. Its also true to say this froms a key part of the training, in varying degrees, depending on whos at a particular training session, time of year, etc

    Once the saftey restrictions imposed by the floor is gone in the summer, there is alot more of the sort of training you describe, the term 'hunting-season' is very appropriate :), its great, turn up warm up with some light sparring, decking each other etc and then it bulids through the evening.

    fun, and the suns shining, so its outside tonight, been raining as well, so this conversation has got me thniking i might sugesst randori tonight, nice soft ground for a change :)

    crytstal

    ditto

    :)
     
  18. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Here's an article which seems relevant to the sports/traditional arts comparison:

    "The history of movement in the Japanese martial arts: structure, way of thought, and transmission"

    I could copy and paste from the .html cached version, but you wouldn't be able to see the illustrations if I did. And besides, it's fairly long. So best, I think, to just go to the .pdf file at http://www.eajs.org/Bulletin/bulletin69.pdf and look on page 16.
     
  19. xen

    xen insanity by design

    there's some gold hiding in that little pdf, cheers for posting it dale.

    for those of you who get as far as page 23, you may find [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys]this clip[/ame] particularly poignant, it illustrates perfectly the principles discussed in that section of the link above. (about 2mins in)

    its been posted before on MAP, but when I first saw it on TV the bells started ringing and I think it fits quite nicely here ;)

    right, where was that creaky floorboard? i'm off to practice :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2006

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