Applying what you've learnt in the real world.

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kikaku, Apr 7, 2006.

  1. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Yep :D

    Surely if you're training in the right way for the art what the other guys is throwing at you is irrelevant, as long as the correct level of intention is there?

    I'm not going to stand there and try and ID what’s being used. I agree a familiarity with other "stuff" is useful actually very useful. I'm all for looking at how others work.

    Here's something I wrote in another thread which covers my idea on different attacks.

    As Mr K said you work with what's given to you and IMO, for what it's worth, it's not the techniques you are working against but the principles behind them and the body using them.

    Again though what happens when trying to do this under pressure? It's not the resistance that can screw you up but the pressure you are working under if you are not used to that then IMO you're done.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2006
  2. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    While I agree with the above and some other statements made here.I doubt that a 20000 word essay could even begin to explain this.
    I have always looked at my training from the prospective of the Uke. What I mean is that BBT over time (Uke or Tori) will put you in every possible position you are ever likely to find yourself in a real combat/fight (there is a major difference between the two) As this position you find yourself in is not strange to us it allows our mind to be free to feel for the openings , escapes etc. To apply a Tec is to take a fixed position this will lead to your demise. To try to control your attacker/s is to allow your attacker to also control you. If you control the space you can control the situation if you control the situation you control the fight if you control the fight you may survive it (Sven Eric) Don't move in Kamae use Kamae to move. (Sven) So it would also hold true that you don't use a Tec to defeat you attackers you allow the attackers tec to defeat them by controlling the space.
    I have had people say Oh but I could have hit you, my normal reply is you may well have been able to but how effective would it have been ? At what cost to you ? Do you think that maybe that gate was left open for you to attack me through ? This comes down to what Ben said you can't resist if it is done right but you may well be given the feeling that you can. Ask anyone who has Been Soke's Uke :D they feel they can keep attacking but it is very much like a fly struggling in a spiders web.
    What is a successful tec ? one that achieves an objective ? One that buys some time for you to move to the next safe place ? the one that leads the attacker down the garden path ? or one that is a combination of all of these and many other things ?

    I think I will leave it here as I don't have another 19000 odd words and this debate will still go around in circles long after we have all bitten the dust :p
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2006
  3. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Darn good job nonetheless. And Spooky, ditto with post #21.

    There's a training progression I use in my dojo to balance out the training in form with training in "feeling" which addresses this, and some might find it useful. While I refer to it as a "progression", which it is as it becomes increasingly complex, we don't go through the whole thing every night as it would just take too long; but we typically do bits & pieces of it once a week.

    At the most basic level it's like what in various forms of karate might be called one-step sparring. Tori is standing there in the classic Shinden Fudo ryu fighting stance (this year, anyway ;) ) and uke attacks with a punch. "Set" distance, "static" beginning, known attack (classic dojo-style lunge punch) done initially at slow to moderate speed.

    As the punch comes in, tori goes to some place that isn't occupied by the fist and either (a) "feels", without using strikes, how he can affect uke's balance and get him to fall down, or (b) sees where and how he can safely strike. After a while we mix the two. There is no attempt to do any sort of technique as such, though sometimes "techniques happen" in the process. What the tori is also s'posed to be doing is trying to control the space uke needs in order to be able to respond effectively.

    Then we go with the same attack and add non-compliance: Uke will try to continue after tori initially gets out of the way. If tori is using space and taking balance correctly, there is nothing effective uke can do, though he does try. . .But his non-compliance is useless because there is nothing to either comply with or to resist, as tori is not trying to "set him up" for any specific thing or to do a "technique" -- it's formless, no intention on tori's part.

    Then we ramp up speed and intensity on uke's part.

    We also go through this sort of progression with other kinds of strikes -- lead-hand jabs, jab-&-cross combinations, arcing "haymakers", etc. Then we have uke attack with any sort of strikes he pleases, not telling tori what it's going to be.

    We do the same kind of thing with kicks: First the classic taijutsu front kick only; then adding other kicks, then any kick the uke feels like throwing.

    We do the same kind of thing "mixing" strikes and kicks, uke throwing whatever he feels like.

    We do the same kind of thing with grabbing attacks, starting with a specific one, adding others, eventually letting uke do whatever he wants (including attempts to throw tori, shoot for the legs, whatever).

    We do this freely with strikes, kicks, and grabs combined, tori having no idea what uke is going to do. Again, tori is not trying to do any sort of "technique", he's working with the space.

    All the drills above are still from a "static" start. Next step up is to add "pre-engagement" movement, with uke trying to "set up" distance and positioning for whatever sort of technique he may feel like doing. Tori deals with it as above.

    Next, while "jockeying for position", if tori finds he can attack before uke does, he does so.

    (We do this sort of thing with weapons, such as knives, as well.)

    These latter exercises really begin to look like "sparring", especially at speed; but it's not "competitive", in that there still is a fairly clear uke/tori relationship. And, again, Tori is not trying to "do techniques" on uke but to use space properly -- though techniques are very likely to emerge from the process, especially as students work more with kata and waza to understand them.

    And one of the things students experience as a result of this approach is that the attack they're dealing with really doesn't matter if they're focusing properly on the kukan instead of on whatever sort of attack uke is trying to execute -- it's "all the same". It's just that it's hard for them to believe and accept this until they've experienced it with a fairly wide variety of types of attacks.

    This process also allows a lot of self-discovery, development of spontaneity and flow, experience of attempts by the uke to create "pressure", etc.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2006
  4. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Hmm...I kind of agree with you. But I remember thinking I could handle a shoot to my waist by just flanking until one was actually done on me, and even though I flanked the arm still hooked and took me off balance. It was good for me to experience it because from that experience I could start working out the possible things I could do if that should happen again.

    Yes, understood. I just like to know what the possible things are that my uke has the ability to give, and thus I train for it. Some fights start unexpectedly without the benifit of distance to begin with, could start with a sucker punch where you are already now in a defensive position and need to backpeddle before you react etc... it's good to prepare for such encounters.
    When I try a technique under resistance, its because I want to see and understand how it works under resistance. This does not mean I am planning to try and force someone into a position that allows me to pick what technique I wish to use on them. It just means that when the situation arises and I see an opening to use a certain technique, I am better prepared for what will come next.

    That's what I was looking for. Excellent!
    We do similar things.
    Mondays class, we looked at a technique, then when we felt comfortable with it, looked at how the Uke gets out of it and counters it with resistance and technique, then when we were comfortable with that we looked at how the tori delt with the resistance and re-countered the counter...then we looked at all the variables that could change each outcome...all the while we were encouraged to see what openings for elbows, kicks, knees were made available along the way.
    :)

    I hope all that made sense.
     
  5. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    One thing which hasn't been mentioned is that, in my opinion you should always strike the Uke first before going into any lock/throw. Of course there are exceptions, but I feel in a combat situation, you need to soften up your opponent, with a momentary distraction such as a hard strike. Just my 2 Yen.
     
  6. Shau

    Shau kurai okami

    You should only strike the uke first if the space and time allow it. Altho I do agree that it definately softens them up first if you do throw in that strike or distraction.
     
  7. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I think any form of distraction/misdirection, and not necessarily a strike, almost always accommodates and aids a throw/lock.
     
  8. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    I was going to say just that after reading your post on striking to soften the guy up. . .then saw you'd already done so. I think it's a better way to express it, and I'm glad you did. :)

    Totally. We do that too. ;)
     
  9. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Thanks Dale.
    What are some forms of misdirection which you teach ?
    A strong touch in Taijutsu betrays your intentions (although I find, it's an excellent form of misdirection, to distract the Uke, from what my other hand is angling for).
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2006
  10. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Great question, though not one I'm prepared to address tonight (it's 22:45 in San Francisco). In fact, it's a good enough question that I think it deserves a separate thread of its own regarding use of misdirection in taijutsu. Care to get that one going?

    Totally agree. As my wife put it once, "If you grab him he can find you. ;) As a general rule, a strong touch as you expressed it should be avoided unless you're using it to direct or "fix" his attention and/or provoke some particular reaction.
     
  11. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times


    Take balance first, then strike or throw.
     
  12. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    What about striking to alter structure and by doing so affect balance?
     
  13. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    This gets a little tricky. It works, of course, but if you do not have a high likelihood of landing the strike you may end up being the one losing your balance. Although, to go against what I just said, if you look at Ichimonji no kata, the block is a strike that takes the opponent's balance so you can apply the follow-up strike. Although, it could be said, that the opponent's (mental) balance is already taken upon failing to connect on his initial strike. Yes, it all gets very tricky.

    If you look at most of the kata from the ryuha the uke attacks you when you are in a good position to react and counter. You can't counter if you are not in a position to do so. I take this also to mean that we should not try to apply a strike that we can have used against us.


    To be on topic. I like to think that I use my training every day. We are learning principles, are we not? How do you receive a physical attack? How do you receive a non-physical attack? Can you apply the principles behind ,say, ichimonji no kata to a non-physical attack? I think yes.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2006
  14. ghosthands

    ghosthands Valued Member

    hello all

    I'm interested in hearing what Hatsumi Sensei has to say on this subject of applying BBT in the real world.

    I know Takematsu Sensei was known as the mongolian tiger because he was undefeated in China. Does Hatsumi sensei have a similar name? Did he fight as much as his master?
     
  15. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Definitive answers to those questions would have to come directly from him.

    Here you go:

    http://www.bujinkan.com/contact.htm
     
  16. ghosthands

    ghosthands Valued Member

    how bout this

    Couldn't I get what other's "feel" of Soke Hatsumi's words are? In other words how about a second hand interpretation of what Soke Hatsumi has said in the past?

    thanks
     
  17. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Why?, second hand is second hand, listen to Dale`s advice, ask Sensei himself! ;)
     
  18. ghosthands

    ghosthands Valued Member

    I'd like to and all but I'd prefer a quick one or two sentence answer from one or many of this students here on this board. Plus, don't you have to pay to get your letter translated? That could be expensive especially for someone as broke as I. I'd really love to go to Japan to talk to him personally but once again, Japan=expensive. Me=just spent my last four bucks on pizza.

    Hope this helps
     
  19. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    No, it doesn't help.

    You want answers about a question only one person is really qualified to answer, ask that person. Otherwise, what anyone else says could just be hearsay. Then would come the questions about proof and where's the video.

    Besides, by your own admission you do not study Ninjutsu. So why is this important to you? And if it is so important to you, then dish out the money for a translation and ask him yourself.
     
  20. ghosthands

    ghosthands Valued Member

    Mr. K

    I sent a message to you apologizing for the profanity of my other post. So...how about you can the hostility towards me?

    No, i don't care about videos and all that. YOu don't have to study ninjutsu to study it's philosophy although I'm sure some would say they go hand in hand. I enjoy Soke Hatsumi's philosophy books. If you peronally don't have the answer then...there's no need for you to respond to my post/question at all.
     

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