It has been people who did act on what they understood about God who have caused many of our biggest problems. 1. It's people who thought they knew what God wants who created the 200 years of the Christian Crussades and the horrors of the Inquisition, seeking to win the world for Christianity. 2. It's people who thught they knew What God Wants who told armies of Muslims to send marauders far and wide to conquer every land and culture and bring it under the Nation of Islam. 3. It's people who thought they knew What God Wants who called themsleves the Choosen people and reclaimed land they declared to be originally their own, ignoring the fact that history had caused it to be inhibited for thousands years by others, and telling those others to now leave portions of that land, to live where and how they are told to live, as second-class citizens without equal rights in their own house. 4. It's people who thought the knew What God Wants who hanged men and women in town squires, and burned others at the stake, holding up the Good Book and declaring them to be witches. 5. It's people who thought the knew What God Wants who passed laws making it illegal for humans of differing races to marry, or for consenting adults to engage in certain sexual practices. 6. It's people who thought they knew What God Wants who created cultural prohibitions forbidding people to sing or dance, draw pictures of any person, or play music or any kind except sacred song. 7. It's people who thought they knew What God Wants who said pro choice is a baby killers but its okay to drop a bomb and kills Young men, Young women, children, and the old in the name of God. Ask yourselves, is all of this What God Wants? Tristan
God wants you to be you. He wants you to have free will, otherwise he wouldn't have given it to you. Forget what hardlined religious fanatics tell you.
I think that people in some cultures are frightened about God. That they think they could come up with a practice to preach upon to get good faith, wealth, well known all over, and etc all ways that come up with a positive outcome that they think that God wants it to be that way. And BloodWolf806 is right. You are you. You have your free choices to make. Believe in what you want to be in. God didn't make us slaves in to what we are supposed to do, as in not forced. So yeah... Just live life the way you are You'll carry onwards.
I guess I'll have to start posting this in every thread now... 1) God is omnipotent. 2) God gave humans free will. Q: If God gave humans free will, can he see our futures? A: If he can see our futures, then it is not free will. If he cannot see our futures, he is not omnipotent. Worshipping an omnipotent god? Sure, just don't keep saying you are omnipotent. Kinda "lying", you know. 3) God sents bad people to hell. Q: If God knows who is bad befoe they are even born, does he knowingly create people just to send them to hell? A: I don't see any other posibility. God lets people be born just so they fry when they die. Love? In BIZARRO WORLD!
Right so far! That last step is a nonsequitur. Here's the best example I've encountered to illustrate: suppose you want to watch the Superbowl, but know you have to work on Sunday evening. So you set TiVo to record it for you. You get back home to watch it. Every action of every player was freely chosen, but the outcome of that tape is completely foreseeable and unchangeable. If I saw the game already, then I can foresee the outcome of that recording, even though the humans in it have complete free will. The ability to 'will' does not mean you have the ability to choose the consequences of your actions. (I may 'want' to fly, but I have little control over the consequences of choosing to jump off a tall building.) There are also things that you can 'will' to do (desire to do/want to do) that you are withheld from doing (by circumstance, opportunity, ability, divine intervention). To 'will' (desire and choose) are really the only complete freedoms you have. That is why the person who hates ('wills' harm to another) but is withheld from harming another (by lack of opportunity, sense of guilt, shame, inability) is just as guilty as the person who actually harms/murders another - lacking opportunity/ability may change the consequences of your choice, but certainly doesn't lessen the guilt of it. Don't assume this is exactly so. There are several whole threads and miles of theological debate on this one sentence alone. I don't think you have this one fully 'tied down'. Not 'who is bad' but 'how they will choose'. Still, the end result is that God created some people knowing that they would refuse the opportunity to return to Him. I consider this the most difficult question in all Christianity. I think this question was what led Origin (3rd-4th century church writer) to his beliefs. At the very least, I would say the question shows that God values our free will far more than we do.
It's not a non-sequitur. He can do EVERYTHING. He could be at work and watching the Superbowl. What you're saying is that our lives are "pre-taped" and God just hasn't seen it yet. Therefore not all-knowing/omnipotent. Hey, all I hear from religious folk (not just Christians) is that I'm going to hell. I assume they know more than I do. But I see where you are coming from. If there is no hell, then I see no reason to believe in God in the first place, since he won't do me any harm at all. Sloth wins again! You mean like when God said "Hey Moses, go tell Pharaoh to let you all go. But, I will make it so he is stubborn and that I have to slap his punk ass around a bit before he lets you go. It will be funny. What? All those people I'll kill? Well, it'll still be funny, you'll see. Zap you out of Egypt in a split-second? What are you crazy? Do you think I'm omni-... oh, right, I did create EVERYTHING in 7 days, huh?" God is an evil *******. He kills people. His own people. Then has the audacity to claim He loves us. That sounds like a drunken wife-beater to me. EDIT: Oh, and I haven't talked to you in a LONG time. I was the guy who asked about ROTC a few years back. Since the scholarship isn't guaranteed, I just decided to go the traditional route of leeching off my parents (well, not really, I have a job. ). I'll get my B.S. in physics and then I think I'll go for a Ph.D. in applied physics. That seems to be what I'm interested in most for the moment. Thanks for all of your help.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm giving an example of how you or I could foreknow something, even if it is the result of pure free will. And considering neither one of us even claims to be omniscient or omnipotent, I think it would be a cinch for God to foreknow the results of our free choices. I think this only appears to be a paradox because of our (limited) understanding of the nature of time. I think you and your conscience would know more about whether or not you're going to hell than I would, since I can't get inside your head. But the more important fact is that, whether or not you're headed there now, you don't have to end up there. That is the message and purpose behind Jesus coming to this earth, living, dying on the cross, and rising again. About the debate: it usually isn't a debate on whether or not hell exists (most but not all Christians believe hell exists). The debate is on whether God 'sends' people to hell, 'condemns' them to hell, or 'allows' them to go if they choose. This goes right back to the nature of free will. Interesting that the whole story shows that Pharoah hardened his own heart (free will) and then God allowed it to go a step further (Not sure, but I think the Hebrew says that God 'made his heart stout'; or basically He increased Pharoah's resolve so he had the ability to carry out what he had already decided). 'All those people' in Egypt had now seen Moses call down boils, flies, gnats, locusts, hail, frogs, turn water to blood, and make the skies dark in the middle of the day. They all knew about Moses, and they all heard Moses warn about the Passover. All the Egyptians had the choice to take part in the Passover (put the blood on the doorposts and be spared) or not, because God loved the Egyptians, too. Apparently, a bunch of them did choose to participate in the Passover, because the Bible says that a huge 'mixed multitude' went out of Egypt with the Hebrews. Looks like all your questions focus on this whole issue of 'free will'. You might want to take a look at that one subject in greater detail. Of course I remember you!! As a matter of fact I was just thinking about you, and I checked this thread because I saw you had posted in it (see what you started?!?! ). Glad to hear you are doing well, and congrats on your progress towards the degrees!
Does god even care about people? If he is the all powerful being... why the hell would he care? He is like the kid watching ants carry food to the anthill. He watched ... occasionally throws in crumbs from his cookie.. Then goes on stepping on the ants to amuse himself.. But he doesnt care about what happens to the ants... what he does is just to pass the time. After spending a couple minutes with these ants he will go home and never think of the ants again.
Capt Ann is correct in her logic. Not that I neccessarily agree with what she believes in, but there is no flaw in her reasoning. Omipotent does not equate to "HE CAN DO EVERYTHING" because that is a contradicting premises for any definition. God cannot lift a stone that he made unliftable. That does not mean he isn't Omnipotent. a) God is All Knowing, and all Powerful. This means he has the potential to do anything he wants, and knows everything. This does not mean he literally HAS to do everything that is do-able. He can control anything if he wants, but does not neccessarily always do so. b) God is All Knowing, and thus knows your ultimate destiny before it occurs. c) Your final destiny occurs because of your free will. If something is predictable it does not mean it wasn't chosen by an individual. I know my dog will eat a piece of steak if I put it in her bowl. The predictability of it does not mean my Dog has no will, or that the Dog is powerless. Free will can coexist with predictability quite harmonically.
That is another paradox which I don't want to get into. Being able to know the outcome of something before it happens makes it destiny. I can calculate where a ball will land if I throw it, without actually throwing it. Humans are a bit more complex, but that's the jist of it. Once I can find out what will happen in the future, nothing will change that "destiny" and simply "not looking" and claiming it's not decided yet is a sham. That's irrelevent. God still know whether you go to Hell or Heaven before you decide it. That's still destiny, since you WILL pick it. Yeah, but will you put a piece of steak in her bowl, tell yourself (or even her) that you will hit her if she takes it, but still know that she will take it anyway?
"Before it happens" is where your argument breaks down. If someone is All Powerful, they are not restricted by the laws of time. They are beyond time. So it no longer is a matter of "knowing before it happens" but knowing everything that happens in all space and time, all at once. God may know you throw the ball, after you have thrown it. Then he goes back in time, and then he knows you are going to throw it before it has happened in that position in time. I guess you could say that is Destiny. But destiny is a result of the causes. Cause and Effect. Now, what are all the causes ? Some are out of the individuals control, so you could say they are Random, or God, etc. But some of those causes are within your control. So even if you are entirely predictable, you still have a say in the matter on how you want to do things. Your will is still part of the equation that forms your destiny. God will be able to predict your destiny based on knowing all factors, including your free will, and because he is outside of time. Not because you haven't a choice. That does not mean you aren't responsible for your actions. The universe undoubtedly functions on cause and effect, but that does not mean Hitler is justified in his actions. He cannot simply say that because all the factors were predictable, that the factor of his will was justified. He still made the decision to do what he did. You are trying to put the concept of Omnipotent and Omnipresent, on Human terms. Which is why it seems contradictory, since we do not function on those terms.
That's irrelevent. Even if He were to go back in time and such, he could change the past. He could say "Oh, Timmy tripping over that rock will make him kill 50 people in the future. I can just make him not trip over that rock." Or whatever. My point is: He knows he will sentence people to Hell before they are even created, but still creates those people anyway. That's like a woman giving birth to a child, knowing that she will just throw it in the trashcan when she leaves the hospital. Once again, that is irrelevant. Whether or not you get to choose it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. God knows that he will sentence someone to Hell before that person is even born, yet God lets that person be born anyway. That is my whole point. Whether or not the person chooses it is irrelevent, God knows it will happen and allows it to happen. Where did I say that people shouldn't be held responsible? I don't believe in God, I believe WE are the only thing that can be held responsible and can actually do anything on Earth. "It doesn't make sense, therefore I'm not smart enough to understand it." is a cop out.
I really don't want to get into the debate right now, but I do want to throw in this concept that C.S. Lewis would sometimes talk about. It basically stated that if God is truly God (all-everything good, powerful, etc.) Then he can see an action we are about to make, and at the same time see the other possible choices we could make. At the same time he can see every possible consequence to our actions. Overall, he can see all of this before we are even born, and then some. In all, one should remember that God is beyond time and space, yet still cares about us enough to send a savior for humanity.
Huh? to the first post. God most certainly did not cause all that to happen or even wanted it to happen. There are always people who do what they want and say it's what their god wants just so idiots will go along with them. Tell you what if you see an angel give 'em a good firm hand shake . God basically wants you to be happy, live well, find an eternal companion, and help others do the same thing, hoping one day you can be like Him. The living well part is where most people have different views.
*sigh* This is like talking to a wall. Saviour for humanity? What about condemning people to hell before they are even born, since he knows we will make "bad" choices anyway, like you said?
