I noticed some people relaying their experiences with sparring and ninpo, and figured I'd tell mine as well. Simple thing, really, but any little bit helps to the discussion I suppose. My girlfriend's ex challenged me and a friend of mine [also a bujinkan student] to a "friendly" spar out where him and his buddy train in the sand dunes. They're both MMA guys hell bent on getting into UFC someday. So we agreed to go two on two, no gear no rules, anything goes, use your environment etc. They were both extremely cocky, as expected, as we shook hands out in the dunes late at night with barely any light except from the moon. Guy #1 rushed at me with a hook punch, I evade, my buddy stomped his leg and he fell. My friend sat on his back and pounded his head until he tapped in about 6 seconds. Meanwhile, Guy #2 decided to shoot me from behind. He outweighed me by at least 60lbs. He struggled for positional dominance for awhile as I tried to get back to my feet. Eventually I wrapped my calves around his kneck and head scissored him, but he got an arm in and was fighting out. So I grabbed a handful of sand off the ground and threw it in his face. Got it all in his mouth, eyes etc. He started choking, so I slammed the head scissor as tight as possible and he tapped instantly. Now later on I hear him trashing me, calling me a cheater and a dirty fighter, saying he would've "whooped my ass in the octagon". All that typical crap, because from what I and others have experienced, sparring fighters don't like to lose from what they consider "illegal tactics", despite the fact that HE was the one who said we could use our environment. Before the fight even started, my friend and I spit on our boots and coated them in dirt so we could snap our foot and send some make-shift metsubishi into their eyes if the opportunity presented itself. If we had stuck by "rules" we probably would have lost because we don't train to spar, where as they do. I'm not saying people that spar can't fight realistically, I'm saying I personally want to avoid getting in that common mindset of "Striking to the groin is dirty fighting" "Throwing dirt is cheating" "Pulling hair or scratching eyes is girly fighting". I have respect for all arts and all methods of training, I just personally choose to do things the way my art tells me to. Like everyone says, "You train how you fight". Well I don't intend on fighting with gloves, gear, and mouthguards. I don't intend on refraining from using certain "unfair" methods of combat, because if your life is on the line wouldn't you want as big of an arsenal as you can get? Just my two cents.
I havent read all the posts, but getting through most of them, I think that you either train using everything possible to survive, or train for competition and sports, you cant be in between. Than again I have no experince in ninjutsu, I spar sometimes and have found that it does somewhat drill things out of you that you need to use to survive in a real fight. I started using "controlled sparring" and found out it helps alot in applying techinques that I salvage through books, though I know I might be doing them wrong I wanted to get the feel of ninjutsu, and felt more "right" than the other styles I somewhat tryed.
Sometimes the hardest thing for a teacher to do is return himself to the level of his student. All practitioners of an art, especially those who have been doing it the longest (I imagine) have a hard time breaking what they know down into chunks that are understandeable by those who have had much less experience than they. There is a trend amongst the ninjutsu practioners I read about who have a lot of skill (from what they've posted, and what I have read about them) including Dale Seago, Soke Hatsumi (sp?), and ?Nagato? Sensei. All of these people who are so well respected by practitioners of the art have all had background experience in sparring arts. Do they have attributes that have been built up by sparring martial arts? It is more up to them than me to answer that question. It is up to those who have practiced sparring arts in the past to answer that question. Sometimes it is hard to tell where one's skill base was built when it comes down to practice and "performance," in martial arts. Personally, I feel that even though Hatsumi (sp?), Nagato, and Seago have seen the most applicable results from non-sparring practice, I think that all of these practitioners have gained some of their skills from these previous arts. From my experience from training in MMA (muay thai/boxing, BJJ) and my brief experience training in ninjutsu, I have found that the training does not differ that much. I train at a really excellent MMA school, and most of the training is composed of drills. These drills go from compliant to semi-compliant to non-compliant. As their skills in training increase, the intensity of the drills can be increased, other parts of their skills can be used in the these drills. Even when an MMA person spars or competes, much of the skill that they build comes from drilling and working hard in practice. Ninjutsu is basically the same, but without the occaisional high pressure testing that MMA sparring offers. However, the intent of the training is not the same. Sports training has great advantages in that it provides a relatively harmless method for using techniques in a higher speed and less controlled environment than "street (I know, I hate the damn word too, but I can't think of a better one)" training does, and that's all there is too it. However, training for the "street" offers a different intent intent into what you do. It may take longer to become proficient using this type of training, but IMO it's worth it. Ninjutsu, I think is on the far end of the spectrum from sports martial arts, and I don't have a problem with that. I personally advocate sparring, but I have a high level of respect for practitioners of the art.
Normally I'd jump into something like this Yohan buddy, but I think I'll sit this one out after this post (unless there are some good discussion continuing). Ninjutsu (Taijutsu) isn't the only art that has used the "sparring is too deadly" argument. CMAists have been using it for the better part of the last. . . . at least 100 years. What were the results? We have Taiji, White Crane, and other "Masters" virtually destroyed by other practitioners who train in a resisting environment. If anyone has seen the 1953(?) White Crane vs. Taiji Chuan video, the methods of fighting utilized is completely laughable. Is that the end all of the "deadly Chinese Martial Arts?" Then I have experienced the prowess of CMA masters who pressure test and utilize their Art, without sacrificing any of our "deadly" moves. These things include: Tiger Claws, Panther Fists, Eye Gouges, Phoenix-Eye Fists, Snake Fists, Mantis Hooks, Qinna (Chin Na, aka joint manipulation), Eagle Claws, Elbow Strikes, Groin Kicks. I train often with sparring partners and other resistance, while still keeping other methods of training, such as step-by-step drills, forms, etc. I think that the primary issue is INTENT. IE -- if you spar with you Bujinkan Taijutsu without the intent of your style (I'm guessing RBSD-similar, streetfighting, etc. . .. ), you're going to hinder yourself. But if you use sparring as nothing more than another tool to hone your movement, timing, reaction, evasion/invasion skills, but NOT AS A REPLACEMENT to other drilling methods, then I really don't see what you are losing. Peace
Again, I don't see how sparring makes you lose your INTENT FOR DIRTY TACTICS. You can spar, yet still retain your methods. For example, I have trained in MMA for a little while (quit for my own reasons, but plan on taking up boxing or muay thai in college alont with my kung fu). The reasons? Not to replace my CMA. But to merely improve upon any skillset I haven't learned before, and to learn something new. Now, I have learned some very nice things from my MMA training. Several new ways of generating power which I as far as I'm concerned are superior to certain ones in my CMA training, and some that can't even compare to my CMA training. I still train with the mindset of a CMA fighter. I will always rely on my "dirty" arsenal of weapons: panther fists, tiger claws, raking, clasing, ear pulling, biting, etc. . . . Has sparring made me lose any of those techniques? Of course not. I don't really see how either. Sparring has made my more responsive and better equipped to deal with punches, kicks, etc. Nothing more. I has trained my body to be able to effectively respond, counter, evade and invade my opponent (call it Gates, center, guard, whatever). I know plenty of "Too Deadly" Chinese Styles that offer sparring.
Is sparring nessacary? No, I don't think so. Only time when I think it is nessacary is when you want to put everything to the test. If you don't then why spar? You can learn to: Better your reflexes Getting used to being striked Learing you use your muscles Focusing on timing Bettering your speed and flexibility etc All of these things can be learned seperately but, I believe, if you aren't prepared to use them on in sparring then there is no reason. It shouldn't matter how you fight. Only time when that matters is when you set rules. Still some fights don't understand the meaning of a fight, or the meaning of 'no' (referring to Masochrist's post). It is sad when someone who is a good fighter but once when they have the ability to do whatever they can if a fight can't even do whatever they want because they are conditioned to fight according to their art/style. All in all, taijutsu doesn't need sparring. As long as you know how to do something and are able to think about using it in a fight then you should be okay in a fight. Of course you aren't going to be good or great since you probably won't be relaxed. And that's why sparring is good. It helps you get used to fast reactions coming at you. Sure you can get that from being an uke but, depending on the person, you may not learn relaxation as fast or not at all. But when you spar you are definately going to learn it because you have no choice in the matter.
You seem to have missed a large part of the debate. It is not just that you are constrained by rules in a sparring situation, but that the other guy is as well. You do not get negative feedback for doing things that are off limits in a sparring situation but that a thug on the street will take advantage of. You train yourself to leave things open. I have seen it. People say they will cover these things in a real situation and only dropping them because it is not needed for sparring. But as you train, so shall you fight. And if you ever leave a part of yourself open during training you will do so on the street. Also, take a look at Snake's post a few pages back. Damn good stuff on how different ways of training can be used so as to not cause one habit to be built up. Of course, we don't call that sparring. We call that type of training randori.
This seems be the point that many are missing. It's really a matter of talking past each other with different definitions. The first section will be in Bujinkan speak, the second in MMA-speak. Remember the words are translated. Bujinkan-speak: I'd say that at this point, I consider ALL my training a form of randori. We may be covering a specific kata or technique but it really takes the form of training for both attack and defense. Uke should attack in the way he feels is best, without throwing himself off balance i.e. he should try his best to remain in kamae while attacking. Tori's job is to present the proper opening to uke so that he will "choose" the attack written in the kata. This does two things. It trains tori to understand kamae and space and shape it properly and it trains uke to attack correctly. MMA-speak: We spar, we all spar. That’s right - the Bujinkan spars. We've just been using the incorrect words. With 2 small notes, which I don't think the most hard-core MMAist will disagree with. 1. We start slow with "combos". Much like boxers might train to throw a combo if the opponent moves a certain way, or the MMAist may train to put on an arm bar on the ground if the opponent leaves it open by making a mistake. Speed is increased and the “script” is relaxed with experience. Additionally, we also include in this skill set training to encourage these openings in the opponent to allow us to perform the technique. This concept is similar to the way a boxer might use a feint to set up a punching combo. We do this by manipulating the space around us which, the same principle underlying the boxing example. 2. We believe in “situational-training”. In other words, one person is the aggressor and one the defender. When Bujinkan people talk about “reality” vs. “sport” this is really (I believe) what they mean: Sport: Two guys toe-to-toe both looking to “win” both equally willing and equally aggressive (and often equally matched) e.g. two professional fighters in a ring. It doesn’t make sense to call one the attacker/aggressor/criminal/good guy and one the victim/defender/good guy/bad guy. Reality: a clear aggressor looking to rob/beat-up/kill/rape/steal etc... from another who must defend themselves. I believe this is the approach used by many in Reality Based Self-Defense. For example: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/MAandSD.htm#WSD We do not train the sport aspect. This aspect is necessary to MMA because of the sporting aspect that is included, since no such aspect in present in the Bujinkan it is not necessary. Therefore, we only train with “reality sparring”.
I have to say this sounds a little suspicious. Its one thing to want to be in the UFC and another thing to train for it. Training in sand dunes is not where one trains for UFC. These guys sound like UFC wannabees with little or no formal training. One of the problems of MMA is that it is a generic term. To be accurate when describing someone you need to know their background. For example in both MMA clubs I have trained most people have a background in high school wrestling. On top of that most of them wrestled in college. Then each MMA program tends to have certain core training elements., In the first one the fighters trained in Boxing and also submission wrestling. In my current group the core fighting skills are Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. As such some people compete only in kickboxing tournaments, some only compete in Judo and BJJ tournaments and others do MMA. There are a large number of MMA fighters who frankly rarely train and get the in the ring little better prepared than your typical tough man contest. They obviously are the low level fighters that in a traditional setting would be essentially white belts. These guys described above sound like that catagory at best.
I am going to have to object to the term "reality sparring" as it is used here. I have trained 8 years with the bujinkan so I think I have a fair idea of your training. Bujinkan training is no more reality sparring than is MMA sparring. By that I mean both systems have their constraints as regards reality. In the MMA training their are some techniques that are off limits to use. For the bujinkan the lack of reality comes from a training partner who is not actively trying to defeat you. I can tell you personally I have had no problem even in my youth switch from a classic wrestling style to "dirty tactics" when I had been in fights. Most experienced competitve athletes know how to cheat including gouging biting etc. etc. These things often happen out of sight of the ref and we had to be prepared for them. Later in life when I was involved in a very serious altercation. The individual tried eye gouging but it was very easy to defeat and he quickly was out of action. All it did was make me escalate the severity of the techniques I used on him. Different systems have different training methods and believe they can learn from each other.
A very clasic example on this part of the subject is a neck crank done on the ground its such a simple technique and is banned in many submission grappling competitions however if I was ever in a fight with someone and had the chance to use it (should I be on the gound) I will do so as the damage it does can be controlled but if forced to it can be a fight ender if you do not release it. MMA sparring does offer new dimension which encompases more elements of the fight. Grappling mixed with stiking and ranges.
The way Russian Systema folks describe their art is applicable to ours as well: It's all based on a "different Operating System" from that found in the vast majority of other arts. It's difficult for MMA folks to wrap their heads around this, I suspect because both types of art are physically expressed through movement. But the mindsets and philosophies which create those physical expressions are hugely different. That's a thoughtful question and well worth considering. I imagine that individual mileage is going to vary considerably, but I'd have to say that in my own case 14 years of sparring didn't do a thing for me that I wouldn't have gotten anyway through taijutsu training -- to include the experience of being hit and occasionally knocked out with hands, feet, and weapons; being slammed on the ground from a considerable height; being choked unconscious; getting twisted up like a pretzel; some skin & muscle tears; torn cartilage; and so on. I think the single most detrimental thing I picked up from sparring was that it taught me to consistently (from a taijutsu perpective, mind you) overreact to everything: Movement too fast, too "big", and with 'way too much muscle-power, resulting in not being in the best position (again, from a taijutsu perspective) to deal with whatever was going on. I'll give just one simple example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. Some years back I had a visitor in my class for a couple of weeks, a brown belt under Robert Bussey who'd been living with him for three years or so. He was accustomed to doing a lot of sparring. So, we're working on this VERY fundamental movement exercise: Person receiving the attack stands in shizen no kamae, attacker punches slowly at the face. Receiver just lets his weight shift or drift over from the knees, not moving the feet, and lets the punch just slip past (or even graze) his face. Puncher is not trying to "track" the receiver, just boring straignt on through like a rifle shot. Idea for the receiver is to shift his center of mass over, moving the entire body as a unit, with the right timing for the punch to just miss. As proficiency is gained with this particular "attribute development" exercise, speed and power of the punch are increased. Done properly, in "real time" the opponent literally does not see the evasion. You can "fudge" a bit with unarmed taijutsu and still survive; but this kind of control and timing become critically important when dealing with things like 3-foot razor blades, where the other guy has to think he's got you until you have him because leaving enough space that he can see himself missing also leaves him enough space to continue flowing and get you before you can either escape or get him. Anyway, this poor guy just could not do it, at even the slowest punching speed. He couln't relax. And if the puncher slowed so far down that it took, say, ten seconds from start to completion of the punch, the guy would still either move 'way too soon. . .or he'd stand there the last two or three seconds, his eyes and expression showing increasing agitation as the fist neared his face. . .and then suddenly jerk his head out of the way, in complete isolation from the rest of his body.
Always interesting to hear other Arts' perspectives. Again, I've also thought of Ninjutsu/Taijutsu as something similar to many CMAs.
As a side note of legit interest is there any footage or record of Nagato's Kickboxing fights, who against, what level etc and his W - L - D record?
yep exactly, that is a good drill 'moving just enough' three layers of skin i think soke says, skin isn't 6'' thick. another problem with the sparring is i don't think the punches would be comitted but mere jabs and other testers, too strategic. of course people on teh deadly street may attack like this, as ali gee would say 'me's doubts it' maybe bujinkan methods are crap for sparring, but theres nothing wrong with that respect
2 d3adly 4 t3h str33t? I'll start this by reiterating something I've said a number of times before: I feel that various forms of randori/"free play" and pressure testing are Good Things. I also feel that competitive sparring, for the purpose of learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, is a Bad Thing. One question I don't think has been well addressed is that when you take an art designed and intended for combat (quoting Soke from more than one occasion, "(Our) Budo is about killing and living"), and you take that art and spar in a competitive sense, restricting yourself to safer applications, are you actually doing the same art? The mindset of our Budo is that you're going to survive, no matter what it takes to be the one that goes home safe. For most of us who train, that is "where we are" mentally when someone tries to impose his will on us by force. . .which is what is happening in a self-defense situation. That's also happening in competition, of course, but in the latter case you're also attempting to impose your own will on the other person -- to prove you're better, etc. For me, at least, if someone wants to "compete" with me (since I'm not into that) I go to the same mental place I do when it's a self-defense situation: I'll do whatever is necessary to keep him from imposing his will on me by force. Now, a number of people have remarked that "the way you'll train is the way you'll fight". Taking this out of the realm of purely physical combat for a minute and to a peripherally related example, in the executive-protection training programs my company provides, the training is presented at a high-threat level. Given that most agents will spend more time operating at medium or even low threat levels than high, why do this? Because years and years of experience have shown that if you're trained to that sort of standard, it's very easy to scale down to deal with lower-threat missions effectively. But the converse is NOT true at all. If all your training and experience are to low-threat standards and environments and you need to suddenly ramp up for a high-threat situation. . . . . .Well, you may get lucky and get through it by extrapolating from what you do know, and find that it's good enough to get you by. There's a much greater likelihood that your paycheck -- um, 'scuse me, I meant to say your principal -- will end up dead. But you won't need that continuing income, because you will be too. Now, with a combat martial art you can also "scale back" if it's appropriate to do so and you find that it's feasible. Example: Couple of years ago I broke up a fight in a cafe, where one man assaulted another with a bottle. I physically controlled them both simultaneously and protected them from each other, without injuring either of them, and they nicely stayed there for me until the police arrived to have a little chat with them and the (many) patrons who witnessed the incident. But in the midst of it I also noticed that I was holding one of them in such a way that I could have dislocated his neck with just a slight body movement if he got hinky on me; and at one point finding it appropriate to reposition him a bit, as I did so I could have snapped his elbow. Easy to adjust to a lower-level threat, if you're trained for a high threat level. Easy to go from a lower-level response to a higher-level one, if you specifically train to "live there". With sparring. . .Well, you try to put me in a "competitive" situation and things get to the point where I feel threatened, I'm not going to just try to do more of whatever already isn't working. That would be contrary to the core concepts and principles of the arts I train in. You're now, mentally, kicking me over into "survival" mode. I suspect that a lot of people have a mistaken impression of Hatsumi sensei's art because they don't really understand (from outside the art) what they're seeing, or (from inside it) are not training properly. As an example -- since it's the focus for this year's training theme -- let's take a quick look at Shinden Fudo ryu. If you look at Hatsumi's '92 training video from Quest and that's your only exposure, you'll think you're seeing a lot of locks, throws, and submission-type stuff going on, for the simple reason that the full "correct" applications are not being emphasized; nor are the movement concepts that link everything together comprehensively. This is not some form of jujutsu, but dakentaijutsu, and the latter seems to be misunderstood by many even in the Bujinkan. Answers.com, for instance, says "Dakentaijutsu is the striking component of taijutsu. It's an especially common term in ninjutsu." Well, not really: Dakentaijutsu doesn't necessarily involve striking at all. It translates roughly as something like "striking fist body art". Doesn't mean you're always hitting; rather, it's a "knack" of using the body in such a way that things you do -- including grappling and throwing -- tend to be done in a way that has the effect of a strike on your opponent. . .while you're also attacking nerves, tearing muscles, breaking/dislocating bones, etc. In the case of Shinden Fudo specifically, there's also a lot of use of "forces of nature" such as gravity. As an example, let's take the kata Gekkan. If you look at the Quest SFR video, you'll see it starts with tori standing in the primary physical posture of this ryu, shizen no kamae. Uke does a right punch; tori shifts out of the way and receives with the left arm, takes uke's right shoulder with the right hand, does a right kick into the gorin point on the body to "fold" him, then brings him face-down to the ground and follows in with an arm lock. That's pretty much what you'll see. That's not how I was taught in the last two "Shinden Fudo" cycles ('92 and '98), and that's not how it's being emphasized in training in Japan right now. Apart from the fact that how you get from receiving the punch to taking his shoulder without getting nailed by something else isn't really emphasized on the tape, what's s'posed to be happening is that you don't just bring him face-down, you also "use nature" by pile-driving your weight down from above and hitting him in the face with the environment; and that "lock" isn't a submission hold, you drop your weight in to tear out the shoulder. . .like an avalanche flowing downhill. The ryu is riddled with this kind of thing -- throws or takedowns at angles causing the opponent to break or tear things, "locks" that are actually body-strikes against joints, etc. Quite apart from the obvious risks of competing with those kinds of techniques, I would posit that if you modified them for "safer competition" you literally would not even be doing the same art anymore, because you would not be using the methods according to their original purpose and design. Here's another example of how looks can be deceiving -- this picture below caught just before my uke hit the ground, from a Shinden Fudo ryu seminar I did in southern California the weekend before last. Some kind of ground-grappling/submission thing going on, right? Nope, not at all. What happens next is that about the point he hits the ground, my left heel hooks into the area of the left occipital fossa and the right heel crunches into the right temple. Either of these could be nasty enough in themselves, but this also conveniently tends to break or at least severely stress the neck, and things continue to flow into an arm break and then I'm either back on my feet or rolling away somewhere. No submission, just a couple of seconds from start to finish, and the opponent is not going to be ready for Round Two.
As usual Dale, an excellent post. I think that pretty much explains it as well as it can be explained and anybody that continues to go on about sparring, well, they just don't and never will "get it".
Dale What about RBSD arts that spar and claim it critical to self defence and their aim is about survival. I have maintained a number of times that there is a difference between sporting sparring and self defence sparring. However also they are closely related. The picture you have shown is of what any untrained person might well try to do. Also in early MMA events this was a legal technique. Some events it even still is so long as your both grounded. This aside Self defence sparring is different from sports sparring and what you have put about upskilling to the threat level is true even for sporting events. I think if you have defence as a goal you should still be able to be credible in sporting as your still dealing with un determined attacks all be it from an individual rather than group. So what say you to the Self defence group of though that still feel sparring is key?