Working without contact

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Paul Genge, Aug 1, 2005.

  1. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Systema like some other martial arts has an area of work where opponents are caused to fall with little or no physical contact. In this article some of the basic mechanics of this type of work are described and then demonstrated during several video clips.

    Paul Genge
    Russian Martial Arts Northwest
     
  2. Balic

    Balic New Member

    That looks kinda fake...
     
  3. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    Apologies for sounding rude. I have a lot of time for some of your articles and ideas, but that is bordering on ruining the credibility of your other articles. The idea is sound and the article is well written, but the videos turn it into a typical "mystic" demonstration against a compliant partner that expects to react in a certain way.

    Still by me writing this, you'll get a few more hits on your site and there is plenty of good stuff there to interest people. The ideas for the rolling defence against strikes when grounded are interesting (although it does rely on availability of free space and movement) and the training drills against multiple opponents are also good.
     
  4. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The kind of work in the working without contact clip are part of the whole and not an individual skill we would use in isolation. Other arts have this kind of work, but do not have drills to develop it so readily.

    Things always look fake if they are done with ease. Unfortunately the drills in the demonstration are easy. What do you want me to do? Maybe I should look a little more out of breath during them.....

    The only way to block this kind of work is to tense the whole body and become totally rigid. This is not a natural state for the body and it cannot be maintained for long. Also for a person to be a threat there has to be movement.

    By working with a relaxed and stationary partner you can learn to identify the density and work with it. Having done this you can then move onto the other work. Ironically in some of the working against kick examples the defence is working due to the permission and support principles demonstrated in the clips you do not like. The difference between the clips is simply that one is designed to show a range of options where one is a clear lable of a simple principle.

    Paul Genge
     
  5. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    what is actually happening in the clips? Are these just low speed drills to show the mechanics of what you're talking about? Or are these demonstrations of the techniques in "live" training?

    If it's the first - fair enough. We in TKD have "one step sparring" drills where the moves are obviously rehearsed, done at low speeds, and are meant to simply show knowledge of the mechanics of the technique.

    I guess I'm asking for clarification?
     
  6. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    No offence meant Paul. Its one of those dilemmas (as you said) things look fake if done with ease and its difficult to convince anyone otherwise. The trouble is with drills like that is that the attacker has experience of the drill themselves and expects to react in a certain way...so they do.

    Its the same with any technique that a trained person reacts in an expected fashion. Someone without training does not. We have plenty of drills too that are done slowly to understand principles before advancing, and people often find that the "live" sparring does not work quite the same or as cleanly.

    How does it work in a "live" environment? (and I'm genuinely interested, not being facetious)
     
  7. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "How does it work in a "live" environment? "

    It's something that has to be integrated in with all your other work. Probably the simplest and easiest response to get is when someone is coming in fast and you thow at a low shin kick. That nearly always gets a reaction, the legs stop and the upper body still comes forward a bit leaving an opening for you to hit.

    "the attacker has experience of the drill themselves and expects to react in a certain way...so they do."

    I find the reverse, when people know what to expect it is more difficult to work against them - same as any technique for example. It's usually easier to work with this at speed as the other guy is committing. When everyone knows it's a "flinch response drill" they are expecting something to happen.

    I was once having a conversation with a student after class about this type of work. He was sceptical about someone being able to influence his actions without physical contact. As he was speaking to me I looked over his shoulder and nodded as if to someone else. Needless to say he looked around. He then turned back and said "no, I don't think it's really possible" :rolleyes:

    cheers
    Rob
     
  8. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The clips are there to illustrate a basic principle that is within Systema and interestingly enough other arts. The only difference between this work and what happens in real life is this.

    - Sometimes the attacker does not have the awareness or skill to percieve the danger they are in. In this case they run into what ever it is that is causing it. So long as your movement would make you safe no matter what the reaction is you can continue with other avenues of dealing with the threat.

    - The person who attacks does not know how to fall or is frightened of going to the ground. In this case they tend to either crash land causing a greater possibility of injury or throw theirselves off balance so badly they either tense up and injure theirselves or stagger out of control into the surrounding furniture ect.

    - The only other difference is the speed of the work. Ironically the effects of this work are greater at a faster speed so long as your movements are correct and honest. The problem with this is that it does not illustrate the points in the argument due to it being hard to see what is happening.

    I hope this helps.

    Paul Genge
     
  9. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    I hope you take this comment in the spirit with which it is intended, that is - with a smile:

    whew! cause it looked to me like you just rubbed some guys ass and he fell down.

    :D
     
  10. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

  11. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    Thanks for the explanations guys.

    I'm still a little dubious of the actual application of this, only in so far as the demonstration is done against a member of the club who psychologically knows the effect of the technique and reacts as his mind tells him to react. This is the fault with many demonstrations of Qi also. You don't see these things done against "joe pubic" very often because they don't move or react, or indeed, expect to feel the technique in a way that a trained person does. But as you said, that may increase his possibility of injury (as with throwing a person that does not know how to relax or breakfall)

    Having said that, I do find this very interesting and any further comments to enlighten me would be appreciated.

    Cheers
     
  12. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Hux,

    Always good to see humour...

    Garibaldi,

    As already pointed out in earlier posts if the attacker does not percieve the threat your movements have to be such that they make you safe. The net result of this is that they collide with the fist, foot ect that is in their way.

    I have seen people fall in real fights. One person who decided to hit me with a haymaker so over balanced himself when I avoided the punch that he screw himself into the floor without any help from myself.

    I have also used the pushing on density principle to take resisting prisoners to the floor. So long as there resistance is dynamic and has an element of movement it is really easy. If however they turn themselves into the human statue I find it easiest to hit them and draw their attention and tension to one point in their body. The take down is then far simpler.

    Paul Genge
     
  13. oneforall

    oneforall New Member

    Mad nice, if it's real.
     

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