Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective?

WHAT - he just throws himself, never in any Ninjtsu class I went to only in Aikido classes I did were they ever nice enough to throw themselves for me and it was a sad sight.

 

Had to be there to see it, nothing like aikido, if you were still in the buj..........

 

nope i disagree, if someone really wants to hit you and are certain they will be able to do it, and at the very last millisecond the target moves, they will unbalance themselves. the degree of unbalancing will be determened by the skill of the torri not uke.

50 bucks it is 'simple kukan playing'

anyone can stand and throw nice punces and keep in balance, this is because there is not full intensity, basically they are holding back.

this is exacly the type of things you will see at sporting matches where they are sparring with each other. when someone is really fired up i am pretty sure they will not be so coy with the attacks.

the feeling i am getting at is when you go to pick uo that big old heavy suit case, but it's empty, what happens?

 

1) post that in the general section and see how many people tell you that you are wrong.

2) So you are saying in Ninjitsu you can only throw one full power punch and if you miss you will fall over? Boxers dont, Thai boxers dont - people with common sence dont. Holding back and having a DEFENCE is what sparring and martial arts in my mind teaches you.

As for being coy with people that is what experienced fighters do on the street. In the altercations I have had I dont throw a "Mega Saturday Night Punch" this is what training has taught me - to have fight ending and knock out punches without leaving myself wide open.

As for the suit case it is not fighting or self defence and I dont fall over.

Post your punching info in the general section if you are confident this is how a martial artist should punch with power. This is exactly the reason why I feel many people are ill prepared with there training.

 

Sonshu, this talk will go nowhere because you (me also) have different perspective how uke will attack than the rest of the guys advocating this type of throw. If the uke is compliant, or in a real fight, if the attacker's brain is poisoned with the adreanline and has no experience in "hard-styles" (boxing, MT, kickboxing...), this throw is possible. I've done it once. But, this is rarity in a real-life situations.

To Bujinkaners: See vids on this page to get an impression how ordinary street fight looks like (don't tend to disrespect people with exp.). Some are lame, but there are good ones. But, manipulating kukan and executing that type of throw is not so simple in these situations.

 

tengu, those are schoolyard brawls and have nothing to do with ninjutsu. If you want to duel, take up boxing, game over, go home.

 

Exactly. Some of us have plenty of personal experience of the kinds of things you're talking about regarding "the reality of attacks", while you have no experience with what we're talking about -- such as the fact that when you're working with kukan, the "style of the attack" is utterly irrelevant. Therefore someone can demonstrate something like choshi dori (which definitely is connected with kukan), describe it logically, even explain both the psychology and the biology underlying it, and it goes in one ear and out the other until someone actually does it to you and you can feel it for yourself.

And when that happens, if no one has explained to you what's going on, the reaction is one of extreme confusion: You can't accept emotionally that whatever just happened was something the other person caused you to do to yourself, and it feels to you like he did something to you with some mysterious "Force". I've done these things to newbies in class with backgrounds in other martial arts, door experience, etc., WITHOUT telling them what I'm doing. When they ask how I did it I tell them solemnly,

"It's Ki."

And until they begin noticing that everyone else in class is trying to suppress chuckles and guffaws, they buy it. Because it actually felt to them like some mysterious force was pulling or pushing their strikes off-target, and they couldn't believe they were doing it themselves because they knew what their own intention was -- they knew they were trying to knock my head off.

It reminds me of this little incident from history:

Similarly, bringing this up to modern times:

 

Siphus, WRONG! You do have school brawls (where you can see intention if nothing else), but you also have some serious brawls: 2 blacks in backyard fighting (look at the massacred face on the one), prisoners, etc. Com'on, look at the whole page, then judge!

Dale, I know what you are talking about - unless experienced or seen, no proofs are enough for my common sense. Damn sceptic sense! Again, I didn't experience it while attacking Shihans, which doesn't mean they didn't have me - how can you otherwise trick the opponent if not by implanting the false sense of security or taste of win!

I feel this thread would be more about training methodology, not about practical things - like training kata drills is xx% or our training, drill XYZ is also important, ... So, talk about methods, not concepts.

 

Real life is what training is for when its my training - If I wanted impractical training I would have stayed with Aikido.

 

"Practical" is a relative term which depends on your experience and level of sophistication. So, for that matter, is "real life".

Autoloading carbines and pistols are incomprehensible (at first) to tribesmen using Stone Age technology who have seldom or never seen a white man and have no exposure to that culture and technology. Their idea of "what works" doesn't include such things. But I'm comfortable and proficient with them myself, and they are very much a part of "real life" for me in terms of the weapons my opponents (or I) may use.

I find the things I learn from Hatsumi sensei and my other teachers in Japan very practical indeed.

 

Yes - we however are from almost identical cultures, I understand how things work as granted I am no Nobel Prize winner but then again I doubt I am any thicker than you.

So we are in the same perceved realms so that idea has gone out the window. Do you agree with what Hatsie said about people throwing themselves over with a full power punch. To me the one he describes is an idiot punch.

 

Doesn't even have to be a punch -- it can as easily be someone trying to grab you.

I think my comparison is apt: In that instance I'm talking about weapons technology that goes beyond spears and axes and is incomprehensible to those who have only experienced the former.

But the parallel is that we're also discussing what might be called a base of "psychophysical" martial technology that is similarly beyond the understanding of those who have not experienced it and who are still stuck in the "speed, force, and gaming strategies" mindset.

It's something I've seen at work, and experienced personally, in 3 different martial venues:

1) The Bujinkan, which includes arts used historically by samurai and ninja

2) Yanagi ryu Aikibugei, a surviving samurai art of the Aizu clan

3) Russian Systema

Interestingly, all three are associated with groups which, historically, developed a considerable reputation for "practical ability": samurai, ninja, and Russian special forces.

This "psychophysical technology" is not something unique to the Bujinkan, and there may well be other arts which contain elements of it as well.

 

nope sonshu, sorry for the confusion, not an idiot punch. although i believe 90% of any attackers i face will have this skill level. but i train for the other 10%.

i can see where you are comming from, it seems your idea of martial training and self protection is based around slugging it out or wrestling around on the ground. if this works for you mate excellent, i did karate for over six years, competed in competitions ect. ect.(one was in leeds, that was ruff, my friend got his leg broke, ouch!) at the time i thought it was 'the best'. i still admire the skill of my teachers, but at what cost is this training.

imho this approach is a 'young man's game' for sure these karateka's, mma guys can kick some serious butt, however how long with they be able to keep it up? i'm still fairly young at 34 i suppose, but i can still feel it. how many guys are competing at over 40 sonshu? how about over fifty? anybody competing at sixty? my point, why would i wan't to learn something which will not serve me well as i get older?, in facter the older i get i will become worse and worse at that art, and cop heaps of injury's from just the training, let alone actually using those skills for real.

nope i'd rather invest my time with something i can become better at with age. as this is when i am more likely to need it, not when i'm in my prime. like right now,lol. which brings me to the takamatsuden arts.

your opinions on ninjutsu (ninjitsu) seem to be based on a seemingly limited exposure to an apparently suspect club, or perhaps a good club that was just teaching beginner stuff, either case is not a particularly good way to judge an art. i have trained in it over a 12 yr period, i wish it were 12 yrs, in various dojo's, in both hemisperes of the globe, as such i feel i have some idea of what the true bujinkan arts are about.

what i think we are taking, and imho what dale is patiently trying to explain about here, ok, back to the idiot punch, when someone wants to hit you, they need three things ie. a target and a range and some sort of committed attack. now when you want to punch someones face in, you are actaully trying to punch right through there head, y or n. this is what people like hatsumi sensei are exploiting, they move the goal posts on you, you are 100% sure you are going to hit/grab whatever them, but 'pwoof' they are gone, by doing this and manipulating what they can and can't do, the kukan, they end up commiting to hitting an illusion, and thus end up being thrown. i am pretty sure it is not the be all and end all of the training to do this throw, but rather serves well as an idication of the students ability at using this kukan stuff we are hearing so much about.

dale can you give me a gold star or a red cross here, to see if my opinion of our training has any correctness to it at all.
not forgetting about my suitcases, when you gou to pick it up, you pick it up, you don't dance around it and tap at the handle, and when you go to pick it up and the handle breaks..... if you only 'jab' an example, the person can just stay a little out of range, if the really want to hit you sooner or later the will have to commit to hitting you. any clearer?

just as a question, if you feel the bujinkan/'ninjutsu' suitcase is full of turds, why do you keep posting on this forum? just wondering, i know you are not a troll or anything.
also sonshu, jfyi, i have been in quite a few scraps, from the primary school pushin' an a shovin, the high school sluggin, the gentlemans disagreement fighting(square go) and being drunk and jumped, so i think i have some idea of how a future altercation may transpire, admittidly not the big lunge punch, but not the sparring stuff either, it is different animal altogether, something that can never be accurately simulated. we just have to train the best way we see fit, but i can assure you i haven't been living in a cacoon for 34 yrs.

dazza

 

Gold star, Hatsie.

I haven't been in a cocoon for my 55 years, either. I did 14-15 years of other combative/competitive arts before I found the Bujinkan arts nearly 22 years ago; and I'm still doing executive/dignitary protection work for a living today. In my field, if you screw up you don't end up getting beaten up: Your client -- or you, or both, end up dead.

 

thank you, i thought it might be as i have a pretty good teacher, a judan, who regularly trains in japan under nagato/hatsumi sensei. i haven't asked him about this (no handed throwing)as most of our club is kyu ranked, only a few shodans(not that i am implying this is shodan stuff, lol). he is quite clearly teaching to that level. but a lot of what he teaches us is relevent to even this discussion.

if your work ever takes you to sydney, australia, please let me know, i am sure you would be more than welcome to train with us.

 

They will not let you in peace. They are the spirits of the Samarai warriors that you Ninjas had killed; now they will haunt you in all eternity...

That sounds like the theme for a horror fantasy movie :Angel:

 

Not quite true. Although it can take many forms, some principles that are behind "real life" and are alway there are: opponent's intention to harm, resisting opponent and very often adrenaline dumps (except for the high level proficiency). No matter is you are savage or a ultra modern soldier, these principles will always be there. IMO, your training principles also have to be aligned with them (e.g. you can't always work with compliant uke since the reality is otherwise).

 

Although I don't disagree with some of what you have said so far I think you have missed Dale's point.

People have a variety of "outlooks" in life that are developed and moulded through experience. I was speaking to a friend who is a police officer. We were talking about compassion and sympathy for victims of crime.

He said to me, "as a police officer you have to remember, although you may have investigated 1000 burglary’s and they may seem mundane, the person who house just got done over may be on their first so to speak. This can be a major life-changing event for them”. Two very different view points for the same event.

This thread has consisted of people with experience who have developed and moulded an “outlook” towards the Art trying to tell you (and others) that for them their training and training methods work. The important words here are, “for them” as, with most things in life, the Art will not suit everyone.

By the way, nice post Hatsie.

 

I've only been training for a month, and have NEVER been in a fight (well, at least since Junior High School).

*My* experience suggests that it is extremely practical:

1. From the first class, you learned techniques and ideas for reacting when someone grabs your wrist, arm, shoulder, punches or kicks you.

2. I haven't done katas of any real length, and I always practice with another person/uke.

3. Most of the training requires very little real physical strength, dexterity, highly practiced or complex movements.

4. Generally, weapons training is such that it applies to other weapons, or no weapons at all.

5. We learn how to jump, roll, breakfall, and climb.

6. The concept of "intent" is discussed and practiced every session.

7. The optional technique of "getting the hell out of there" is legitimate, if not honorable.

 

I've found out how to attach a poll to this thread.

So, let's vote!