Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective?

just because YOU can't do something sonshu, doesn't mean it isn't possible

(and no, i can't do it either )

 

Well I am happy to call bulshido on this - unless it is a situational specific move i.e one in a million idiot attack, or its a sweep then it aint happening not what I could call a throw.

I can not think of any example and I am sure if this was posted in the general section there would be huge shouts of show us, explain and rubbish. For me anything is possible but there are some moves you will only get 1 in a 1000 and are not worth practicing as there attacks of opportunity.

So someone please explain how with out the use of your hands or intent alone you can throw someone.

There are some good level dan grade people on here.

 

ever thought that it maybe it just can't be explained? and that it is something that only very rare and gifted individuals can do after a lifetime of dedication and hardwork?

just speculating.

 

Could it be that when these throws are done then the Uke is having his/her space taken??? So they go where there is available space....be it down to the side or where ever ??

Not so much mystical force (cue star wars theme ) just very very good Taijutsu and a good understanding of movement and psychology???

 

spooky, you bubble burster!!!

here was me hoping it was due to the mysical energy you learn to channel down from the ninja's plain of enlightenment!!

humph, back to ashida kim books for me then

(sorry, greg looks like i'm keeping them now)

on topic;

i'd definately agree with spooky though, i doubt if it is solely due to what you physically do to the opponent, but more a case of what the opponent unwittingly allows you to do to them.

by this i mean, someone who could do such a technique wouldn't be able to do it to someone stood in shizen, but rather would exploit a movement that was already taking place and direct it elsewhere...but how? well i guess the answer to that can only be found by....(drum roll please)...

TRAINING!!

 

Ive been thrown without being touched. My friend in my class was thrown without being touched. And another guy in our class was thrown without being touched. None of us knew it was coming, and it wasnt the same day, but, thats 3 for 3 none the less.

It wasnt so much of me getting lifted off the ground with magical powers and laid out, but more of me getting startled and tangled in my own body mechanics, trying to catch myself, and sliding across the floor laughing...

 

Still no specifics about what happened as from reading this it seems like you just fell over yourself which is not you being thrown.

Please expand

 

I can see the "debate" on this being based around how people interpret the word "throw" :bang: :bang: :bang:

 

Yep

Picking up a person and manovering them around your body causing them to leave the ground land on there front, back or side when completed right - that is a throw.

It is also what throws were when I was doing Ninjitsu, some require a scarifice of your own position to cause the manovering part. I did mention earlier sweeps etc are different.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

or should that be Kukan burster!!

Look this thread has offically gone nowhere, Sonshu has put his view across to the 'mass' and i think he has had enough time to 'debate'. time to move on.

No answers here.

Whats the point of trying to convince someone outside of the training circles of our arts.

lets just move away from the thread.

;-)

 

so your talking about hip throws, shoulder throws and sacrifices?

no uchi mata's, o-soto-gari's etc?

edit: bond posted while i was typing this...i pretty much think we've made a big enough circular trench in this field as well...

 

Throwing the person without touching them... did it. Could I duplicate it? Intentionally, probably not. I think that day I got lucky. I can describe the scenario, as I remember it, however (truth!) I was wearing a blindfold at the time.
We were working on a timing and space drill, my turn to wear the blindfold (minds, out of the gutter please). Object, uke punches, slowly at first, tori moves when he/she feels the punch. Speed is built up as drill progresses. Object, move into a safe space right before the moment of impact. But wait you say, I have a blindfold on and can't see!! Well, duh, that's the idea, you need to feel their intent. Well, we had been working on this drill every class for about a month and then one day, it just "clicked". Stan threw a punch (and I mean threw, he meant to knock me off my feet) and I moved. I didn't touch him, but the next thing I hear is a loud "THUD" and a curse and the "I don't want to play this game anymore". When I took off the blindfold, he was a good 10 feet away, rolling over onto his back. I asked what happen, he said he tried to hit me and "flew" past me and splat! Now, you can call it what you want, but I'd call it throwing him without touching him. His feet left the floor, he hit the ground.

It's not impossible, just hard to believe if it's not happened to you. Nothing mystical or paranormal, just the correct use of space and timing. (Haven't we heard that before?)

 

This thread has gone nowhere. Original question has been left unanswered. OK, what of the bellow mentioned methods do you think are crucial for the training (and please specify weight factor for each item):

1. bag work
2. focus mits
3. kata drills (no resistance, 1 kata)
4. explorative kata work(no resistance, creativity)
5. sparring with limitied set of actions (resistance, contact) - e.g. you can only apply gyakus or throws.
6. sparring (resistance, full or semi contact)
7. weapon kata drills (sort the most important weapons)
8. weapons - application (resistance)

Normally, these are not only fields of ninjutsu, but even 8 items can be boring to fill out.

Can I somehow make a poll? I've seen that on this forum...

 

I think in answer to the original question would be yes it is from the bujinkan students etc(if it was no, why would they continue?)

and does it really matter what ex students and people outside of our training circles think- er No!



ps a new thread for the poll me thinks!

 

This "throwing people without touching them thing" is, as has been suggested, a matter of how you use space and time within the context of action that is occurring.

If you take the term in the specific way Sonshu means it, then no. It's not possible outside of, say, a Star Wars movie. What he describes is akin to walking over to your living room couch and trying to move it with intent alone. Not gonna happen.

But it is entirely possible to do things which create the illusion, in the perceptions of the recipient and of observers, that this sort of thing is what happened. . .though what you've actually done is mess with an opponent's mind in a way which causes him to throw himself. This fits in with a particular definition of aiki given me 16 years or so ago by the Soke of Yanagi ryu aikibugei, a still-surviving feudal system of samurai aikijutsu:

In other words, it requires interaction with the consciousness and perceptions of the opponent.

As for what is involved in doing this -- I've explained it at some length in a thread over at russianmartialart.com which the original poster titled "Throwing Someone 'Magically'". I'd rather not have to repeat myself, so I'll just give the link here for anyone who'd like to check it out:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212

If anyone here wants to respond to that, then it might be good to open a separate thread on choshi dori to go along with those dealing with kukan.

 

we do all of the above evenly over any 12 month period and more...

all important, but not all thats important...

edit: both a poll and the thread dale suggest seem like good ideas...(as did bonds answer to the original question)

 

lol bingo and by training im sure you ment more then 4-5 years!!..make it decades?!

 

See the new thread:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37396

 

In relation to this at a recent Arnaud course there was some work done on this, Kasumi no in he called it, being like the fog, it seems to lie in that direction where an uke commits to a punch and because you are like "fog" then you are not there and he just throws himself.

 

With the upmost respect I would call it someone who does not know how to punch, if you throw a punch even a full power punch at a non stationary target and it moves you should not go flying over. You did not throw him he was a muppet.

Sorry will be a lot more convincing than that - if you have been working on the intent for a month and he still cant throw a decent punch without going for a flying lesson then he should be busted down to white belt.

Sorry guys not buying that as a legit example of effective training methodology.