Samurai vs. European Knight

hmm very interesting.

First yes a single handed sword from europe will generly weigh about as much as a katana. however there is something you didnt know, the blance points are much different A closed hilted sword is blanced about 2-4 inches from the top of the basket where as a katana is balnced somthign like 6-8 inches.

While the one pic you you remarked does show a longsword in a high over head ppostion it is a shot in motion and is moslt likly moving quiet fast. I can whip around a longer heaveir sword faster than poepl can clos in with a lighter weapon whetehr its a my 2 pound practice longsword or my 3 pound practice greatsword, an di am not too terribly muscular in fact im rather puny.. Its called distance control.

Greatswords and other euro swords are much more flexilbe than a katana have a thinner corss section..

Longswods are light, I have a practice one that is 2 pounds and its much heavier than what my sparring groups uses while being faster, why? Better balance

Wold yo ulike links to severa swrod smiths that do excelenct repros and practice blades. all the bettter ons give out weight and length as wel as COG and COP and somtimes blade profile.

 

Ok, some good points.........although its pretty common knowledge nowadays that a knight did not rely on strength alone.

"and will tire the user a lot faster."
I think you severely overestimate how long a duel takes, now I've spared using weighted sparring weapons (not real weapons! whew thats dangerous)and a typical round the actual fighting itself times at around 5-15 seconds. This is excluding the times we are just standing there waiting for each other to attack. If you have ever seen a fight with 2 experts, regardless of whether they practice an eastern or western art, the fight will many times last much shorter. Maybe duels last 5 minutes in Kung Fu movies, anime, and such, but not in real life. If a duel last any longer then a minute you just both are using poor technique. Now, I typically use a sword and buckler style, so I'm holding a 3 pound sword with one hand and a shield in another. Now sir, I can tell you I can go well into 10 rounds barely feeling tired at all. I can also tell you if you train in this style all your life......say like a knight, I seriously doubt your arm will tire near the end of a battle, much less a duel to the death, which will have only one round(lol). I also want to tell you that the Chinesse swords such as the Jian and Dao were also at around the same weight, and were also used with one hand. (nothing like the feather weights they are portrayed in movies like Hero). Now I have two friends that are really into Japanese martial arts, and study Kenjitsu. Having sparred with them I really find no superiority in their art, they usually have trouble getting around my buckler. Ive won rounds, I lost rounds, I say in the end the two styles are evenly matched.

1)The two handed claymore you mentioned was used by the Scottish Highlanders at around the 16th century, not a weapon of the knights and not used in a fashion like the pics I showed you. The basket-hilt claymore came about much, much later, around the same time where rifles were becoming so effective that Europe had no need to remember its old fighting traditions. It wasnt into the late 20th century when people started digging up old fighting manuals and resurecting the old medieval fighting arts. Also, there are many cermonial, decorative and training swords that ARE exact replica, doesnt mean they were used in battle. You keep using the word claymore, and I keep telling you knights used a much lighter sword, such as a falchion or longsword.

2) Very good point. I did not mean to point out that they were EXACTLY alike, or even very similar, but there are similarities. I do admit that I know little about Japanese Swordsmanship, however I do know Kenjitsu students that have commented that many of the primary stances on the Longsword, such as "ochs", "pflug", or "alber" , and many of the cuts are similar to kenjitsu. Im sure there are a lot of techniques and concepts that are different but there are many similar (keyword: similar)stances and cuts. Im just going by what others have told me. Also having sparred with friends who study Kenjitsu, I see similarities in their stances and the longsword stances. But you cant tell me that the knights used strength alone. For example, one of the great Master-of-Arms of Europe who studied under Liechtenauer said that even a weakling could use his system and still win. Now I cant say for Kenjitsu, but I have heard of a man named John Clements, who in 1994, using the techniques of the Euro-longsword entered a National Kung-fu weapons tournement and won first place. It seems, that much of the Kung-fu community is still in denial about the event. Link: http://www.thearma.org/photos/advanced.htm
Also, if you read my post on pg. 3 on the Wako Pirates, there were reports in the 16th century of English pirates and Japanese pirates entering hand-to-hand combat. The Wako were well trained in Japanesse fighting arts, and at the time the English still retained their medeival fighting arts, and the Wako lost. Go to pg 3 on this thread.
PS When doing any kind of DECENT vertical or diagonal cut you must at least raise the sword above your shoulders, usually in the "vom Tag" or "ochs" guard (not neccesarily the entire sword itself, but most of the blade). When sparring against my friends who study kenjitsu they also raise the hilt of their sword over their shoulder and many times the hilt over their head to perform such a cut. Their are many moves in German longsword to counter this position, some as simple as a 'cross strike' to the head or torso, however, to pull it off is much easier said then done. Me.....and my opponents, learned that the hard way. Swords come down fast, and at a certain distance much harder to dodge then a punch. Most decent longswordsman will feint (fake)and instead go with a different strike, pulling in a cocky opponent who thinks hes going in for an easy counter. And any idiot who would pull his sword back to strike will keep safe distance, unless you know a technique where you can dash 12 feet in a half a second a la anime, I have yet to see it. You must have a lot of confindence in your abilities to claim you can pull it off so easily. Also, I may not be an expert on Japan Swordplay, but isnt Iaijutsu the art of drawing the sword????


3) Absolutly right, that picture does prove nothing. Perhaps I should provide some videos instead. Go to the first link and look at the floyshes and techniques they show using steel replicas of longsword (there are videos with wooden ones, plz dont come back here and say "those are wooden swords lolz!", look for the videos using steel longswords) If those videos dont convince you, I dont know what will. Also, didnt I say to do a little research of your own? What the girl is holding in her hand sir is called a longsword, not a claymore.

http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/TPVideos.htm

As for the question of a Longswords weight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword
2.5-4 pounds, and longer then a katana to boot.

And if you have a question on cutting power.........
http://www.arma-ogden.org/content/view/11/2/
you can see the longsword cutting the deer in half in one clean stroke.

 

You're probably right. But when you point out that the balance is different in the katana, you also have to consider the fact that if you handle a katana with one hand only, you'll also have a similar number of inches of weight in the back part of the handle (where your left hand would be placed if you used the sword with both hands).
This once again would just about square out the balance.

But it would not change anything in the fact that using the katana, you'll have the option of using both hands, or only one (giving your other hand the option of striking with the saya (scabbard).

 

regardless of whether or not you are holding a katana with one hand its balnce will still remain the same. It doesnt amtter that you woul dhave 6 or more inches of tsuka sticking out the balcne point is still gonna be much farther than that of a euro sword. Does that make sense?

And how is a longsword differnt from a katana in that you can have one or both hands on the hilt jsut lieka katana while haveing a closer COG and more reach.

And with single handed swords espiecal later on when sheilds werent used as much you end up still more reach becasue you can angle your body more instead of keeping it more square when using a sword with two hands.

 

John D.,

I actually went through a lot of videos showing swordplay knight style.
There was a video showing a guy in armour. I have absolutely no problem acknowledging that this guy is good at what he's doing !
BUT .... there's a huge difference between that type of swordplay, and Iaijutsu: In his armour, he is very fast as long as he can keep the sword in motion. There are a few situations where the motion of the sword is stopped, and if you concentrate on those, you'll see that it requires some strength to "get the sword going" again. Even for this skilled practitioner.
Yep, I'm well aware that european swords aren't THAT heavy, but add to that the weight of arm protection, and you will have a weight that is considerably higher than a katana.

Compared to Iaido/Iaijutsu, we practice stopping a cut within an inch, and then instantly cut in a completely different direction.
A sword that moves in a continous motion is quite easy to counter, as you have some idea where this thing is going. I don't have the experience in european swordplay, but I do see some resemblance to working with the long staff (Bo). This also works great, as long as the motion isn't obstructed, or you don't have to make sudden changes in direction.

One of the videos I found actually did show a technique that is very similar to an IaiJutsu technique: The attacker tries to perform a vertical cut (Shin Choku Giri), but as soon as he brings up the sword, he is countered by a thrust (Tsuki) directly into the throat.
But other than that, I don't see too much overlap in the styles.
In european swordplay it looks as if parrying plays an important role. In Iaido/IaiJutsu we tend to move a lot more, avoiding any other contact than the one cut that will bring down the enemy (or an initial contact that will distract the enemy long enough for us to do the cut).

 

Nope, the balance point will be the same. But the remaining tsuka will act as a counterweight. If you'd not have that part of the tsuka, and you'd still have the point of balance 6 inches from the tsuba, it would feel way off balance. But because of the counterweight, it doesn't.

The longsword is different by the fact that it is difficult to handle a longsword singlehanded. Do you think the girl in the picture earlier linked to, would be able to hold the longsword in the same position for any amount of time, using only one hand ? I doubt it.

 

now you are comparing armored combat with unarmored iaijustsu of coourse there will be differences. Now I dont recall anyone comparing European longsword stlyes with iaijutsu only kendo/jutsu. there are no sword drawing techniques on europeans swordplay as far as i know.



Look as I said before it doesnt matter whethr or not you have one or two hands on the tsuka the swords still weighs the dsame and its weight distribtuion is still the same, removing one hand will not magically make the balance drop back becasue there is still the same amount of weight behind the tsuba as when there is when there are two hands.

 

Errrr ..... Kendo and Iaido are two sides of the same thing.
Kendo is where you practice hitting an opponent with a bamboo sword, wearing full protection. No cutting is involved at all.
The protection is styled after samurai armour, yes, but it is merely traditional practice protection gear.
The samurai would go to war in wood/leather armour, but in a duel he'd probably never wear any protection at all.
Even if you do count on the samurai to wear body armour, it wouldn't weigh as much as the knight's.

Iaido is the other part of samurai swordmanship, practicing to handle a live blade without any opponent, and practicing actual cutting.

Iaijutsu is probably the closest thing to real samurai swordplay, using no protection, and the oak bokken (wooden sword), against an opponent.

 

ok now you are lsoing more credibility
Samurai never used wooden armor this form a peoppl who know how to make tradtional samurai armor

Samurai armor may be lighter but its weight is not as evenly distrubuted around the body making it more cumberson, this form japanese reanactors wearing tradtional samurai armor comapring it to European armor.

And while we are tqlking about weights, again, if yo8u can hold a katana which moslt liekly weighs the same as more than a longswod wioth one hand in that position whats to prevent anyone else from holding a longsword in the same postion, man or woman?

 

If you're right, it wouldn't make any difference which hand I remove from the tsuka.
If I remove my left hand, I will have the benefit of counterweight.
If I remove my right hand, the balance point will still be about 6 inch from the tsuba, and the weight behind the tsuba is still the same.
But the balance in the overall weight distribution has shifted dramatically.

 

ok now you are being obtuse
fine let me restate that in clearer english

The weight distrubution does not change cuz you are neither addng nor removing weight.
mAyve I should have said anythig about the tuba, let me correct myself. the blanance point does not shift on the sword it stays in the same place by removing your bottom hand all you have done is remove you bottom hand so the blance point relative to your hand is the same but if you remove you top hand , wile the balcne point on the sword doesnot change it is now several more inches farther from your only hand.
And I never said th balcne wouldnt shift forwads only that it wouldnt shift backwards closer to your hand which is what I belive you are stating. the only way for the COG to move closer to your hand is if you add more weight or move your hand closer to teh balance whihc probabl y wouldnt be a good idea as there is a sharp blade right there.

 

Well, maybe if we'd have this discussion in my primary language, which is danish, we'd move around som misunderstandings !

My point is: It doesn't matter where the balance point is, as long as it feels right for the weapon you're handling, the way it was designed to be handled.
Yes, a balance point closer to the tsuba would be desirable, if you'd primarily handle the weapon singlehanded. But you don't.
The way you work with the katana, it feels right. It feels EXACTLY right when you use both hands (that's what the thing is designed for). When you use both hands, there's no need for counterweight. You'll have no trouble at all handling a sword like that.
Once you use the sword singlehanded, it does make a difference that the counterweight is there.

If that's the way you would want to primarily use your sword, you'd draw the wakizashi instead. That one is from the start designed for singlehanded use.

 

oh.....so thats what you meant.
I agree

 

Well, it's repeatedly been pointed out that european swords don't weigh nearly as much as we'd like to think.
But I would say that if the sword that woman is holding in the picture, were a live blade (it may well be), chances are it would weigh more than 2 lbs., which is just about a standard weight for a forged steel katana.

 

Knight or Samurai?

Hmm,Knights trained in unknown martial arts that are dead arts today wich included a fairly advanced system of unarmed combat.(Not alot of people know this.)
The Samurai was a really good fighter too,I think that since Samurai armour weapons and aumour was lighter the Samurai would have the general speed advantage,but,in most respects a Knight was capable of applying greater raw physical power in combat.

Now with all this sword buisness,listen up.

If a Knights sword (Longsword or Broadsword) were to go against a Katana,there are two things that might happen.

1.The Katana would shear through the blade of the Broadsword,severing the weapon in two.(The Knight's sword was very sharp but the Katana was a bit shaper and way lighter.)

2.The Broadsword would mangle the Katana blade.

Either of these scenarios could happen

Lau Gar Gung Fu
Sifu

 

Monty
agreed it is possible that is does weigh more than 2 pounds but as two pounds is aobut the average weight for single handed european swords, and several gaurds used with the older blades involve being similar positions and holding it until you make your move, which could be a long time, I dont relly see how someone couldnt hold a longsword with two hands in that position. Ive done with my larger greatsword and it weighs 3 pounds. would you get fatigued? yes but ho much and how fast depends on how much endurance you have built up in addtion to how much the sword weighs.


Sifu Shen Fon
once again I am amazed at how often someone wil ljust post somthing with out haiving paid any attention to what has already been posted.
WHY DO PEPL CONTINUE TO DISREAGARD INFORMATION THAT CLEARLY STATS THAT SAMURAI ARMOR AND WEAPONRY IS NOT LIGHTER THAN THAT OF EUROPEANS?

AND A SWORD CAN NOT CUT THROUGH ANTHOER SWORD IT IS NOT DESIGNED TO DO THAT IT CAN NOT TAKE THE STRESSES INVOLVED IN CUTTING HARDENED STEEL.

 

Uh....Yeah, that's ridiculous. Swords don't cut through other swords, and Samurai armour was almost the same weight as a European set.

 

Ok I see what your saying now Monty, sorry if I came off as a little harsh.

Monty, we do practice stop motion techniques too, using a pell. This training can be traced back to Roman times.

Actually, speed is also very important, in Fiore's segno for example, he briefly desribed how important it is to dodge and manuvaer. I think he even said something like "that arrow in the sky, cannot overtake you", whatever he meant by that, it was obvious that dodging is very important. Yes, parrying may be more important in Euro swordplay, but their are plenty of dodge moves, looking Jorg's fightbook I can see many. Actually, IMHO European longsword puts a lot of emphasis on displacing, and also manipulating your opponents blade by binding, winding, etc to force an opening, especially in German Swordsmanship. This is especially important when fighting a person of equal skill. Correct me if Im wrong, but kenjitsu uses displacing also.

 

<sigh> Once more into the breach....

Alrighty, I'm too tired to keep track of who said what, so I'm just going to data dump here...

Point #1: Yes, the Occidental Martial Arts are very similar to the Oriental Martial Arts. For some reason we all seem to have 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, ears, etc., and there ain't exactly too much happening too rapidly in the Darwin arena. Don't believe me? Here are two articles that might be of interest:

'Journal of Asian Martial Arts'
Volume 6, Number 3, 1997
"Kindred Spirits; The Art of the Sword in Germany & Japan"
by S. Matthew Galas, Esq.

Summary of comparisons in the article:

Ochs (Ox) = Jokaku Jun (Shinkage-Ryu)
Pflug (Plow) = Chudan No Kamae (Various)
Alber (Fool)/Eiserne Pforte (Iron Gate) = Gedan No Kamae (Various)
Vom Dach (From the Roof) = Jodan (Various)

In addition, the aspects of Attack/Defence, Timing, Distance, etc., are all compared, and found to be very similar in philosophy. The most interesting one is the idea of half-swording, a technique commonly dealt with in the Western tradition, but rarely encountered in the East. The Author *did* find the Katori Shinto-Ryu contained a high number of half-sword techniques, although rather than grabbing the blade, it relies more on supporting the spine (for obvious finger cutting reasons...


'Inside Kung Fu'
Volume 12, Number 1, January 1985
"The Martial Arts Tradition of the West;
The German Two-Handed Sword;
Exploring the Martial Past of European Fencing"
by Charles Daniels

The big note I'll give to this article is that the Author cites over and over a German Manuscript Author of Mener (no first name). He's actually talking about Joachim Meyer...

At any rate, this article more describes the German school of fence overall, but the Author did state the following: "...The 'four forms of attack' used in German two-handed swordfighting echo the 'three methods of forestalling the enemy' by the great Japanese fencer Miyamoto Musahi in his 'Go Rin No Sho', or 'Book of Five Rings'..."


Point #2: It has been said very politely, and not too many people have argued with it, but just to reiterate, European swords aren't somehow heavier just because they are made on the other side of the world. Metallurgy was fairly well developed all over the world, and if you're talking an edged weapon, they are fairly well the same.

For the myth of the weights of Western Swords, please kindly read:

http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2004/jwmaart_shore_1004.htm


For the myth of a Katana's superhuman powers, and ability to slice through entire planets, please read a previous rant of mine here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=342876#post342876


Point #3: Claymores, and other two handed swords are not giant cleavers, they are fairly nimble beasts. Some actual historical examples of the *big* swords can be found at: http://www.claudiospage.com/15hand2.htm

Most of these blades average 4’ in length, and weigh between 3.3 and 4.7 pounds. At 12" longer than your average Katana, and roughly a pound (or less) per foot, they are comparable to any eastern blade, and are not the monstrosities of steel people imply.

They are certainly *not* only used by hefting overhead and allowing gravity to send it crashing in. I'll be the first to tell you that a well made and well balanced 3 pound blade that is 38" long is a *THIRSTY* little bugger, and I can effectively cut with it against flesh for at least an hour without breaking a sweat. Sure, armor will add some weight, but even fully proofed field harness is rarely more than 60 pounds, and the distribution and weight is mostly upon your hips, not your arms.

I'm sure I'll have more fodder for this thread tomorrow, but in the interim, please, oh please, chant this Mantra:

Folded <> Better, it just means it’s folded

Steel will cut into Steel, well, just like Steel

Hand forged <> better, it just means someone could have made all the same mistakes in a much slower manner

Stainless Steel = A bad choice for anything designed to be swung around.

 

Actually..

Katana's and Knightly swords(most) were very capable of cuttung through the blades of other swords,especialy Katana's.
I respect your opinion but if you arent aware of this obvious fact i suggest you brush up on your swordsmanship studies.
Also Samurai armour and weapons were lighter than eauropean knight armour and weapons.Simply because of the fact that Knight armour was made of steel and iron and Samurai armour was made of laqered wood and strips of lighter metal.Also at one point Katana's became designed specificaly to be weightless to the point where the swordsman could barely feel the weight of the blade.So i suggest you study more.



Lau Gar Gung Fu
Sifu