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Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by 47MartialMan, Apr 10, 2010.

  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    So performing a high kick is the pinnacle of skill and instruction?

    I taught someone how to back flip-somersault and high kick without ever having to physically demonstrate.
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Please indicate where in my previous post(s) I stated that performing a high kick is the pinnacle of skill and instruction?

    The point I was making (which you seem to have missed) was that I believe any coach who teaches a skill should be able to do said skill him/herself. I used high kicks as an example. For example, a healthy coach who teaches high kicks but cannot do them him/herself is, in my opinion, an indication that he/she is not conditioned enough, skilled enough or knowledgeable enough to teach them. After all, a healthy coach who claims to have the knowledge to make others do high kicks (or any skill for that matter) should be able to do them him/herself, right? If not, it says something about his/her understanding of sports coaching and training principles. At least that is my reasoning.

    Then, in my opinion, you don't know how to coach properly or responsibly. Any decent coach would demonstrate a skill at least once to his/her athletes. I know I do.
     
  3. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Hypthetically speaking (and I mean hypothetically only) what is your view on the following situation.

    Say you could already kick high and you have nice flexibility. But your kicks could still be better with improved technique, speed and power.

    Your coach is a guy who in his prime kicked many heads and was a champion etc etc however due to situations out of his control he can no longer kick head high. Let's say a drunk driver crashed into his car leaving him with permant injury.

    Your coach understand the mutinae of kicking and is able to take your base of high kicks and verbally tell you how to improve as he can't demonstrate himself. For example he may tell you to do certain excercises to improve speed and power. And also tell you how to change your body movements to improve your technique. Or possible guide your body using his hands. He can also show you video of himself and other kickers performing the techniques. He may also have a senior student who is capable of demonstrating.

    Would you be a willing student of such an instructor?
     
  4. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Hypthetically speaking (and I mean hypothetically only) what is your view on the following situation.

    Say you could already kick high and you have nice flexibility. But your kicks could still be better with improved technique, speed and power.

    Your coach is a guy who in his prime kicked many heads and was a champion etc etc however due to situations out of his control he can no longer kick head high. Let's say a drunk driver crashed into his car leaving him with permant injury.

    Your coach understand the mutinae of kicking and is able to take your base of high kicks and verbally tell you how to improve as he can't demonstrate himself. For example he may tell you to do certain excercises to improve speed and power. And also tell you how to change your body movements to improve your technique. Or possible guide your body using his hands. He can also show you video of himself and other kickers performing the techniques. He may also have a senior student who is capable of demonstrating.

    Would you be a willing student of such an instructor?
     
  5. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Per my point EXACTLY
     
  6. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    In a word?

    Nope.
     
  7. righty

    righty Valued Member

  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

     
  9. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2010
  10. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Righty,

    Just the way I feel about the subject.

    Slip,

    I don't think it's arrogance at all, or anything to do with my age. For what it's worth, the likes of Thomas Kurz and Pavel Tsatsouline say exactly the same as I do. I've seen way too many out-of-shape folks who claimed to be able to teach high kicks and splits, yet were unable to do them. Their students couldn't do them either. Go figure.

    The examples of boxing coaches you gave might not have been great fighters, which is cool. Nowhere have I said a coach must be, or must have once been, a great (or even mediocre) fighter. But they can all throw a punch. They teach punching, and in my opinion, must therefore be able to throw punches. My game is stretching and kicking, so that is the example I use. I still stand by my opinion that any coach who teaches splits and high kicks must be able to do them. I don't think they have to be a good fighter (or even be one), but they must be able to do what they teach. If they can't, clients will just go elsewhere for coaching.

    With regards to your comment about age catching up, I'll use Bill Wallace as an example. At 64 years old and after several hip and knee replacements, he can still drop into the splits and kick head height. He travels the world every week to deliver seminars. If he can still do it, why can't anyone else? Like I already said, I believe any healthy coach who can't do well what they teach isn't much of a coach.

    If you don't like Bill Wallace as an example, I know a 79 year old who can still do the splits and kick very well. Hell, take me as an example. At 25 I had a full hip replacement. Within 6 months I was back doing full splits and high kicks after the op destroyed my previous flexibility. If I can do that, then why can't healthy folk who still can't do splits and high kicks? Simple, in my opinion. They don't really know how, or can't be bothered, or both.

    Some people just don't have the balls to say what they really think.

    My reasoning isn't incredibly blinkered, as you put it. In fact, my reasoning is focused and I know exactly where I stand on the subject. But you and others can think what they like about my opinion; the steady stream of clients and requests for seminars I get is enough for me to keep faith in my point of view.
     
  11. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Claiming to teach and actually having th knowledge or experience to is nt the same.

    High kicking or splits are not the pinnacle of teaching martial arts.

    Therefore if someone doesn't do it, or can't do it, doesn't mean that cant teach martial arts period.

    I taught someone how to back flip-somersault and high kick without ever having to physically demonstrate.
     
  12. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    46MartialMan,

    You're just cherry picking parts of my posts and fail to address the other parts.

    My point is that anyone who genuinely has the knowledge and skill to teach should be able to do well what they teach. The issue was raised about coaches who may have handicaps that prevent them demonstrating their skills. There are two points to this (which I will post again in case you missed them): 1) such coaches are very few and far between (certainly less frequent than healthy coaches who don't really know how to do what they teach), and 2) I gave a few examples of coaches who have overcome age or severe injury (myself included) to do what they teach.

    I didn't say splits and high kicks are the pinnacle of martial arts. But there are so few people who can actually do them, and fewer coaches who know how to teach people to do them. Genuine coaches, even those in old age or who have experienced physical disability, can still do the splits; they can still do what they teach (my original point). That is why I used them as an example.

    Of course, someone who can't do what they teach, or doesn't know how to do it, can still be a coach. I might call them a fraud, but that's just me.

    Again, I know you've said you taught those skills without demonstrating. And I have said I don't think you're much of a responsible coach if that is true. Any coach worth his salt will demonstrate a skill at least once.
     
  13. Yuen Fen

    Yuen Fen Valued Member

    No, Taiji is a martial art, not 'about health'.

    Yang Chengfu was the first person to teach Taiji on a wide scale, and he wasn't exactly spritely.

    [​IMG]

    You cannot judge someones skill based on appearance alone.
     
  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Cherry picking better than nitpicking?



    No matter. The crux of the point, IS - someone does not have to physically lead by example in ALL cases.



    Poor example. High kicks and splits are not the crux of fighting or martial arts. Just because someone cant do these, doesnt lend it to state that they cant teach these.



    I am not saying that they can do because they dont know. I am saying they cant do perhaps of a illness or injury preventing them from doing, but they still have knowledge and experiences on how to teach someone to.



    AS I had stated;

    I am saying they cant do perhaps of a illness or injury preventing them from doing, but they still have knowledge and experience on how to teach someone to.
    I can't do a back flip or sommersault. But I know the methods and mechanics of it. Therefore I was able to teach it.

    As with anything, once the methods and mechanics of it is known, to teach it doesnt require physical demonstration.

    Martial art ability isn't practiced upon splits or high kicking as the pinnacle or being able to teach something. Anyone can train these without instruction.
     
  15. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    One of the major points of this thread. :cool:
     
  16. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Although I think fitness is important in martial arts, the instructor's fitness level doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. Some instructors are getting on a bit now and as such they're not as fit as they used to be. However, they're still good instructors much of the time, and they may well have been fit when they were younger. As such they still know what they're doing when it comes to teaching you and the fact that they're no longer in prime physical shape themselves makes no real difference. I'd be far more interested in the fitness level of their students, particularly the senior ones.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    *BOLD Indeed, much can be seen upon the senior level students. If they are doing splits and high kicks and the teacher is not, really goes to show the teaching skill of the instructor
     
  18. CrowZer0

    CrowZer0 Assume formlessness.

    Have you not seen Sammo Hung?
     
  19. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Of course I have seen-known about Sammo

    As per may thread opener, it is the point of interest made towards my associate (read bold)
     
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Please tell me which "body shape" of opponents that you prefer to fight in the following 2 groups. You don't need to understand Chinese on this. Just use your imagination.

    1. 同天貫日

    2. 申田甲由
     

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