Was this before or after the greatness which was Sparta, cuz it kinda sounds like their phalanx formation.
Hi Saja Nim Sir, Whilst you are absolutely correct in saying that arguing about where each of the different martial arts came from and whether the Chinese or the Koreans or the Japanese did it all first will not make one better on the mat, and only good practice on the mat with good instruction etc will achieve that, I have to disagree slightly on the relative usefulness or futility of trying to find out the historicity of the KMAs. One things we humans are exceedingly good at is asking "why?", closely follwed by "who, what, when and where?". And it is this quest and thirst that has driven back the boundaries of knowledge in all manner of fields, scientific, artistic, engineering, medicine, history, etc, etc etc. Every tidbit of information dug up from a book, or from the ground, or from research, adds to the overall enrichment of humankind, and actually adds to an understanding of the MA, as to why things did evolve as they did. And I agree with you wrt the idea that no Warrior will pass up the oportunity to use an effective technique he has seen somebody use. Essentially, learn or so not survive!!! Basically, I suppose I am saying that all the people like Bruce who are trying to make sense of the spaggheti of Korean MA history, are doing a service. After all, "they" said it was futile to try and fly, or climb Mount Everest, or build ships from steel :hat:. Of course if one wants to improve one's MA abilitynothing will beat training. Hope this makes sense Saja Nim Sir, and all the very best. (As a complete aside, in the Tain Bo Cuailgne, or the cattle Raid of Cooley, one of the famous epics of Irish literature, Cuchulainn is described as being able to perform certain "hero" moves, such as the Salmon Leap. Nothing in any literature describes what the Salmon Leap is, but it was obviously a well know move undertaken in battle by those who could do it, as it crops up elsewhere, and also didn't warrent a description sionce it is apparently assumed that the audience of the time would know what the move was. There are other moves that are named but not described as well! Scholars have debated for years as to what they were, and it would be superb to find out what these moves were, as this would add to the story of Cuchulainn, and a greater enjoyment in this magnificent epic. In a similar way knowing more about the origins of one's MA may help in the enjoyment of that MA more ... just a thought.)
Or indeed the Greek Hoplite Phalanx that the Macedonians improved upon through use of essentialy a pike as opposed to a spear (I cannot remember the names of the respective weapons sorry!)
All this talk about Salmon leaping reminded me of this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVS1UfCfxlU"]YouTube- John West Salmon "Bear Fight" ad[/ame]
No.... two VERY different approaches to battlefield science. The Greek Phalanx was essentially a solid square of men, perhaps 30 men across and 30 ranks deep. All were armed with long spears which could be raised and dropped from front to rear and side to side to allow the unit to move in any of the four cardinal directions. However, its main use was as the earliest "battle tank" in that the entire unit moved forward behind a row of interlocking shields and effectively crushed forward against whatever stood in its path. Very much a force-on-force sort of approach. By comparison, the "mandarin duck" formation was a series of squads, rather than a block of humanity. General Qi had learned that the most fearful thing about the WAKO was the incredible energy with which they initially attacked. The tactic---not so very different from the Scandinavian "beserker"-- scared the hell out of the Chinese fighters and allowed the WAKO to penetrate deeply into Chinese territory as well as take and hold coastal cities. The strategy that General Qi envisioned was to provide a flexible defense against the initial onslaught and let the attackers exhaust themselves against this flexible line. It then remained for the Chinese troops to hinder fighting ability of the WAKO as well as inpare the WAKO's retreat. Does this help at all? Best Wishes, Bruce
Quozl mentioned the Celtic "Salmon Leap feat" earlier from http://www.paganachd.com/articles/celticmartialarts.html "However, the most famous practitioner of cleasa ("feats") was Cú Chulainn, who learned a number of them from the warrior woman and renowned teacher of martial arts, Scáthach, though he was also said to have learned a couple previous to his arrival at her school. Notably, he knew the “Salmon Leap” prior to arriving on Skye, where Scáthach was said to live. He makes use of it in his “application”, as it were, to her for instruction. Classical commentators, in discussing their battles against the Gauls, noted that the Celtic peoples would leap over the shields of their opponents. The “Salmon Leap”, it seems, was simply learning high jumping techniques and practicing them until the warrior could jump up in the air higher than most" The article also discusses other Celtic "feats" I'd imagine the "Salmon Leap" would be something like this opening scene in the film "Troy" where Achilles kills the giant Boagrius by leaping over his shield arm and thrusting a sword into the neck. The action starts at 4 minutes into the clip [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buPRU02T0fU"]YouTube- Troy - Thessaly[/ame]
My own personal value is not to tear anything down or to inflate anything beyond reason. The Korean warriors were not "sword-saints", classic "warrior-poets" or the Asian counterpart to the Flower of European Chivalry. I have no illusions that any of my research will uncover some culture of Korean "ubermensch" and I have little patience for people with this agenda. Flipping the coin over, its an insult to the Korean people to accept that their military traditions and prowess died-out long ago and to accept the Japanese view in the Russo-Japanese War that the Korean army was good only for hauling Japanese supplies. I am very sorry that the Korean people victimized themselves through unbelievable amounts of abuse and corruption over the centuries. I am also very sorry that the Koreans have not resolved the schizophrenic national psyche in which hundreds of thousands supported the Japanese war effort while others refused. All of that said, however, there still remains a history of individual toughness and patriotism which is framed in every conflict since WW II and the framework for this character deserves to be preserved and promoted. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Thanks Demdike, again a fascinating link! Cheers (Brief edit to say sorry to Bruce, since I forgot to thank him for his further explanation of the "Mandarin Duck", and then to say thank you Bruce!)
heres another take on the Salmon Leap Salmon Leap I'm not convinced by the authenticity, but its an interesting idea As far as I'm aware Julius Caesar (and others) specifically said the jump was over the shield - these guys are going over right arm each time (though one of the antagonists is left-handed)
personally based on what ive researched on my own or locals ive talked to, i get Kuk Sool Won's mission which is to be an institution that open mindedly studies and incorporates all martial arts. Hwa Rang Do......i dont view it as having ancient roots. only Korean arts i see that way are styles like Shippalgi, Taekkyon, and Ssireum and several others i cant recall off the top of my head
I can't say that IME I have found either the KSW leadership OR HRD leadership particularly "open-minded" or flexible. I must also say that I don't find a whole lot of Korean material as much as material pressed into service to represent what one person or another believes that Korean Martial Traditions---perhaps even Pre-Occupational traditions might have been or should look like. Having said that, I can report that there are individual WITHIN organizations who are hungry to know more about Korean Martial roots and the amount of information that gets compared and contrasted among these people would shock most folks who expect to see everything on the pages of TKD TIMES. Best Wishes, Bruce
I agree wholeheartedly that there is a GREAT deal of value in learning all there is to know about origins and evolution. My point is that we have known for years that there ARE no reliable resources. We KNOW the folks who are handing us their version of history in Korean martial arts are not reliable (and I am trying to remain civil here). Added to that problem is the lack of written word. Furthermore, the translation of the MDT is akin to the translations of the bible... how many versions do we have???? So, we can take our pick in promoting whatever someone else thoughts are, and to me that is why it is futile. IF we had good documents from the old times, great. But believing the "personal accounts" of secret books handed down, or training with this or that monk's grand mother is about as bad as it can get v/s what we CAN see with our own eyes. Korean martial arts (and artists) are as good as any I have seen, and that is good enough for me to stick with it. I guess you might say I have become very cynical about the truthfulness of our venerable leaders. The day we have the good fortune of someone excavating a treasure trove of historical documents I'll get back into history of Korean martial arts. Until then, I will spend my time doing my best with what has been handed down to me. Lots for me to work on there Rudy
I suppose it all depends on what camp your research most agrees with. Rhee, McBride or McCann. Rhee is a professor at Seoul National University who would most likely agree with extrapolating and reconstructing "hwarang" stories into what he believes is authentic Korean Martial Tradition. He would be most influenced by Yayoi (Japanese) emigration of Koreans into Japan and the 3 Kingdoms account of nationalistic history 8-10 centuries later. His sources are primarily from the National Library of Korea. McBride is a professor at Brigham Young University at Hawaii. He would most likely debunk most theories with the opinion that history cannot be extrapolated and reconstructed using logic and circumstantial evidence alone since human beings neither act necessarily with fate nor logically in the world evolutionary sense. His sources are primarily from UCLA. McCann is a professor at Harvard University who takes a leap and correlates writings with history in a systems approach. He realizes that history is often written by the victors and such accounts are often made into songs or poems of the era. These songs/poems give insight into what may have happened. McCann would most likely agree with an idea but extrapolations are neither debunked nor supported. His sources are primarily from Harvard and Cornell Universities. ---- My studies showed more of a mix-mash of the above. It is true that much of Korean historical documentation has been lost over the years on the Korean mainland. But what people forget is that overseas COPIES existed en masse during the 19th century! National libraries in China, Russia (Moscow), Washington and Harvard Univ have extensive records. Granted, most documentation had to do with village life and family lineage which, at the time, was what I was researching. For example, while it may not seem like much to an outsider, something like 4800 families were re-united via Harvard Univ historical records from pre-Japanese occupation to post-WWI. 4800 families lost contact and their lineages were split via different names (Japanese naming) and death such that separated brother/sisters had children and marriages where none of the following generations knew of each other. Their family history was lost on the Korean mainland during this time. But copies overseas of these records brought them back together...long lost cousins meeting for the 1st time at age 70! ---- So what does this have to do with HwaRangDo? For me, it tells me that the whole concept of "hwarang" was nothing more than a social club of what we would call the Korean yangbang class (though that name is incorrect since yangbang class is anachronistic in this case, but the connotation of a social elite class remains the same). This yangbang class sought to raise their children with others of their class. Thats it. The social club may have risen to something more region by region and skillset by skillset over the years and may have incorporated Martial techniques but that part is extrapolation since there really are no "overseas copies" to rely on. That part is most certainly revisionist history. FYI, the idea of social class and education for todays youth still exists...and I will take it a step further and say it also exists in a more subtle form here in the United States (SPS-HU-HLS-CSC-PA-SCOTUS)!
Many thanks Sir, I appreciate your post greatly. I do not know enough about the subject to know one way or the other, but from what I have picked up, I have to say I have a great deal of sympathy with your point of view, especially wrt the "verbal histories" of the various arts as protrayed. However, in many respects I have to agree that it doesn't detract from anything that we learn in the Dojahng! I would also like to thank you VM, for your post. May I ask a question though, what is SPS-HU-HLS-CSC-PA-SCOTUS?
Its not secrecy, guy. Its the natural consequences of harassing and publicly deriding intelligent and well-meaning people. After a while, those people stop making contributions and leave the Hapkido community to their own devices in the shallow end of the pool. There are, perhaps 20 or 30 people with whom I network who no longer waste their time "casting pearls before swine", and I can't say I blame them. I happen to be one of the more outspoken people, but even in my own case the whole affair is wearing rather thin. For instance, in the case of this thread I cannot believe that people are still talking about this particular subject. Exactly what does it take for people to recognize misrepresentation and put that misrepresentation to rest? The simple fact is that they don't want to put their fantasies to rest. They like their fantasies. They readily patronize those who support the fantasy over the fact and that is how the money is made. This thread is not about comparing KSD to HRD. Its about comparing what people want to believe about KSW with what people want to believe about HRD. Facts have little or nothing to do with it. Best Wishes, Bruce
HU = Harvard University HLS = Harvard Law School SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the United States A good many of the Powers That Be in the U.S. have an "Ivy League" education. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. While the Universities do make some effort at diversity (most visibly in the case of Liz Murray)... Wikipedia quotes and estimate that 10-15% of Ivy League admissions are affected by legacy admissions.
I beg to differ in the legacy category. True legacy admissions is when 2 candidates have equal profiles (grades, extracurriculars, recommendations, test scores) and with only one spot, the position is automatically given to children of alumni. What people don't tell you is that often times, the children of Ivy League graduates have superior grades, test scores, LORs etc...and would have gotten in on their own merit. Many Ivy grads also inter-marry (lets not get into that phenomenon!). So it should really surprise no one that the child of 2 exceptionally bright people, more often than not (there are always outliers), turn out bright as well. Counting these gifted kids in the legacy pool is misleading. True legacy admissions to a Ivy League school, outside of race consideration, is less than 0.2% (source: Cornell Daily Sun). ---- But the premise of the overall meaning is correct IMO. A quick look at the United States: 3 branches of government: 1) Legislative: over 300+ have an Ivy League diploma (out of 535 members of Congress so 300+ is a strong majority). 2) Executive: Expect viable Presidential candidates to have an Ivy diploma (or a military record). Obama, W. Bush, Clinton, H.W. Bush... 3) Judicial: The Supreme Court currently has 9 members...which means 5 is a majority. Currently, 8 of 9 are Ivy grads. Ivy grads have NEVER been in the minority. Much of the power in Law, Business, Medicine and Engineering in the United States have Ivy League grads running the helm. That is not to say that you can't succeed without an Ivy League diploma. Anything is possible. But all things being equal, a kid with a Ivy education has a better chance at success than one who doesn't. ---- Knowing this, parents may try to give their own children the best possible opportunities for them to succeed. So working backwords...SCOTUS is the Supreme Court of the US. It is a lifelong appointment...arguably 9 of the most powerful people in the world...because while a President can hold office for 8 years at most, a Supreme Court Judge can hold office for 30-40 years! As noted before, most of these judges hold a Ivy diploma. PA=Practicing Attorneys/Judges. A pool of applicants where Supreme Court nominees come from. Most of the "highly qualified" pool of candidates have an Ivy diploma (nearly 99% since Robert Bork twenty years ago). CSC=Clerk for the Supreme Court. It is consider a great honor for recent grads of law schools to clerk for the Supreme Court. A large pool of these clerks come from the Ivy League...including a full 1/4 coming from Harvard alone. HLS=Harvard Law School. A prestigious school with a relatively diverse student body. It is a large school (600 students/yr), and not surprisingly, many of its students come from Harvard College. While most Universities struggle to get 1-2 of their very best (valedictorians) into Harvard Law School, roughly 100-125 students at Harvard Law School are from Harvard College. HU=Harvard University including Harvard College. SPS=St Paul's School. An elite New England prep school with strong ties to all 8 Ivy schools. While most high schools can only dream of sending their valedictorians to a Ivy League school...SPS regularly sends even their average, middle-of-the-road students to an Ivy. There are less than 10 of these ultra-elite high schools left in the country (Philips Academies, Collegiate, Brearly, etc etc etc). Imagine being the class clown with the worst grades and still being able to goto Brown or Penn! So the blueprint to success starts out young. Collegiate starts at age 5! Does that mean everyone who goes to Collegiate succeeds? No. But does Collegiate send an alarmingly large percentage of their students to an Ivy? Yes. Do these students then get advanced degrees? Yes. Who has more lifetime earning potential...a Harvard Business School student at age 30 or a Collegiate student at age 5? You'd be surprised to know that the average Harvard B-School student will make 3-5 million during their lifetime. The Collegiate student projects out to 10-12 million...go figure.:star: ---- So what is the point? Each country during their respective points in time have a social class structure and "recipe" for success. The hwarang society is one such example. It was a social club for the Korean elite. It was an ancient blueprint for children to grow up for success during their own lifetimes in their point in history. AFAIK, that is the extent of documentation that is agreed upon by experts in the field. The whole HRD-hwarang connection is not documented.
