Marc Animal MacYoung/ What is SD to you?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Marc MacYoung, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Good points Marc.

    Some of the issues of interpretation that you raise here are why I refuse to even demonstrate knife disarms when asked questions along the line of 'I know you said you wouldn't teach it on this course, but could you show me what you would do...'.
     
  2. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Hey Mark,

    I been following this with great interest thank you. However here is a dumb question :

    If I was in a situation where I grabbed the knife hand with two hands in an attempt to control the attack or even disarm you mention leaving go to strike. Are you referring to the system where its drilled a strike would always have to be with a hand i.e a fist etc?

    Because honestly if I was within that distance with two hands on the knife I would be striking with my head, feet, knee etc anything to unbalance the attacker from range then deal with the knife from there. Am I just missing the point totally or just posting rubbish ill pre-pare to hide if either is the case ;)
     
  3. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    ^ Good question, I was thinking the same thing. 2 hands on knife I woulda thought knees and headbutt would come into play in that instance...
     
  4. Marc MacYoung

    Marc MacYoung Valued Member

    Actually it's not a dumb question. The best answer is 'it depends.' Mostly it depends on your training. If you're trained to hit with your hands, then odds are good that's what you're going to try to hit with.

    Interesting bit of trivia. If you ever see video of people who died in fires in bars, event centers, etc., (when management locks the fire escape doors to keep people from sneaking in) you will see people caught in an OO-OO loop. (as opposed to an OODA loop). In a state of panic, people will hit the push bar and when the door doesn't open, they stand there and beat the push bar over and over until either someone else comes up grabs them and drags them away OR they are over come by smoke.

    What you are trained to do WILL strongly effect what you do in a crisis.
     
  5. shuyun3

    shuyun3 Shugyosha

    wonderful dose of reality Marc.

    by the way, is that you?
     
  6. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    ^ It's the same guy who's photo graces his website, so I'd say so... ;)
     
  7. Marc MacYoung

    Marc MacYoung Valued Member

    Yep, It's me. It was taken in Poland at Cops International. For most of a week, Police, military and anti-terrorist units from six different countries spent all day beating the bejeebers out of each other and then drinking all night.

    My GAWD can those guys drink! That was taken in the pub that we'd hang out at after training. They had some incredible additive that they'd put into the beer. It was awesome stuff.
     
  8. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Is it really that black and white then? Because I come from striking background and when ever I done SD training with my last and only instructor if I ever got into range everything came into play.

    I guess if I spent all day every day doing a jab cross in thin air and on pads, then at some point during my life muscle memory would just take over and my repetitive jab cross drill would come out no matter what the situation is / was, is that what you mean by training?


    Interesting way of putting it! Well in that case are most SD lessons ineffective unless they are tested and demonstrated under pressure within the class? And shouldn't this be promoted more?

    I mean most of the SD experts out there or the guys that write books and sell DVDs claiming to have the best street system inevitably show a drill for X scenario but its always demonstrated at half paced and with a semi complaint partner to make the DVD look good!

    Because at the end of the day if what your teaching is SD to a class of 30 what's the point in showing how to disarm someone if you can't replicate or demonstrate it in a controlled* non complaint system? Then that person may stand a better chance or reacting rather than going through the 1.2.3.4.5 step system they where taught to achieve victory.

    *By controlled I mean padding that person up, or being able to stop it any time within the class
     
  9. Marc MacYoung

    Marc MacYoung Valued Member

    It's not exactly that black and white, but the tendency tends to be there. So unless the pattern is broken by the individual or by specific training, that's mostly what's going to happen. Punchers punch, kickers kick and grapplers grapple.

    I can't tell you the number of commercially trained martial artists I've seen, who the first thing they try to do is take a 'fighting stance' like they do in a sparring match.


    Oy vey, simple question, NOT a simple answer.

    Let me first start by pointing out that NO training, no matter how good or how supposedly 'complete' it is, is EVER the same thing as doing. My friend Bob Orlando has a quote about all training being a simulation of reality. I often say that training is like building a bridge across a chasm ... except that the bridge never fully reaches the other side. It can come close to bridging the whole span, but in the end, it is the person who has to make the final leap.

    Some training doesn't really come close to the other side, but some people can still make it work. Some training gets a lot closer, but the person can -- and often will -- still freeze and fall apart the first time he/she finds himself in a live-fire situation. In the final analysis, it is YOU who must make that last leap that takes you from training into application.

    Unfortunately, many people want to believe that there is some kind of 'one stop shopping' where they will get everything they need. This is simply not true. Violence is wildly varied and never the same from incident to incident. A technique/approach that works well in one set of circumstances will be a disaster in another. This has become a really big source of argument and contention -- especially in the belief that MMA is the gold standard of training for ANY kind of situation.

    I got sucked into a conversation over on the ninjitsu section of MAP
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=34075321#post34075321

    If you cruise the thread, you'll see a lot my thinking on the problems with marketing/ advertising and partial understanding being --not only mistaken for -- but also promoted as the 'best way to train' Basically you have a lot of people who only have found one important element of training and then over-emphasizing it. Each element is important and arguing why someone is wrong for over-emphasizing another is like arguing over which half of a broken system is better. To have good training, you need ALL the parts. Not just one that someone says is the most important.

    I have two stories that will begin to show you the complexity of the problem. First requires a bit of background. In response to the complaints of martial arts professionals about having to lower standards to keep the doors of the schools open, the founder NAPMA came up with a solution. Cardio-Karate. Basically by using CK as a 'cash cow' the instructors could keep standards high and still pay the bills. (Okay so it didn't work out that way, but that's another story). Cardio Karate was basically aerobics, dance and martial arts blended together and done to music. Some schools, however, were promoting Cardio as 'self-defense.'

    Peyton Quinn told me a story of sitting in the NAPMA office and telling the guy that CK wouldn't work for self-defense. The head honcho pulled out a file FULL of newsclippings about women who had defended themselves from being raped or strong armed robbed by USING their Cardio-Karate.

    Conversely I know a Ph.D who grew up in a ghetto. He now teaches at a University. A young and attractive female student had a tendency to walk around campus at night. He told her that wasn't a good idea and she replied that she was safe because she knew kick boxing. My friend -- who has a violent past -- told her that wasn't something that overwhelmed common sense and that she could still be attacked. She retorted with "Okay if you were a rapist, how would you attack me?" He told her and she, in shock, replied "But that would kill me!"

    His response was "If I want to rape you I don't care if you're alive or dead when I do it."

    The reason I told you those stories is to show you that there are different levels of violence out there. Those women who used their Cardio Karate were facing a level of threat that CK worked. It would NOT have worked against an attack the level my friend was talking about.

    So what works for self-defense? The answer is there are no simple answer.

    What you will see however is that most so-called self-defense training is more about 'fear management' than 'danger management.' By this I mean, it is more designed to address your internal fears, imagination and reinforce your beliefs about violence (fear management). It is a lot of people who are telling themselves, 'I've taken self-defense training so I'm safe.' Fear management is mostly about controlling what is going on inside of you.

    Danger management, on the other hand, is about learning how to handle factors outside of yourself (like learning how criminals operate and how to navigate the legal system).

    Actually, I'm going to suggest you look at your above statement in light of fear management vs. danger management. Since most people won't ever have to apply the training in a live fire situation, it doesn't have to physically work. What it must do is make you feel safe. And since most of the fears come from people's imagination, the 'answer' that makes them feel safe is usually just as imaginary.
     
  10. shuyun3

    shuyun3 Shugyosha

    is there room for pre-emptive striking in self defense?

    does does that automatically make you the assailant?

    Given that you are certain of his intentions, and you hit first before you get hit. Others see that as prudent and a winning solution but I guess that doesn't fall under self-defense, does it?

    And "animal" doesn't stick when juxtaposed with your picture (meant to be a compliment). Where'd you get that monicker? :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  11. Marc MacYoung

    Marc MacYoung Valued Member

    It depends on which country you live in. Under British Common Law a pre-emptive strike is allowed if you can convince the court that you were about to be attacked. It's a lot more dicey in US courts.

    By doing all the stupid and dangerous things you have to do to get that name.
     
  12. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    It depends! If someone is in my house in Colorado in the middle of the night, I can legally shoot him dead with no warning.

    On the other hand, there was a case in California I read about where a guy was confronted by three guys taunting him how they were going to beat him to a pulp. As they surrounded him, he hit one of the guys and ran like hell. He ended up in court and had legal action go against him because as the judge said, "You are never justified in hitting first."

    Guess which state I moved back to from Japan? ;)

    I've seen his table manners........:eek:
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Ass on the line time.

    below..get off line SUPPRESS the knife ARM (in this instance crush his elbow in to his side) and strike him HARD to a kuzushi. All in the same instant. Enten Jizai=attack and "defence" in the same instant.

    FRom here I "could" attempt locks or throws BUT if he is "sewing machining" multiple short jabs.. there is no time.

    Pass on without pause and hit him HARD with tenchi nage. The throw can be adapted so there is no breakfall.I can guarantee that he goes in on his head.

    The whole thing is done by going from alert to 100% all out attack in an instant.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  14. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Let me get this straight koyo.

    Pic 1, attack/defence with both arms guarding your centre line, hence uke/attacker is unbalanced and hence weak.

    Attacker jabs at you fast and furious at you in sewing machine mode - no possibility of anything clever/smart etc, because elbow motion (in spite of your best efforts) may still allow him(or her) wriggle room to continue jabbing.

    From the arm and body alignment (tori to uke), irimi-nage is not easily possible but a fast thrusting sharp curved thrusting cut to his neck and down will a) take his balance further away and b) his mind/concentration away and c) take him to ground, with you standing - pic 2. :- Tenshinage in a variation from what I learnt 'classically' donkeys ago - my Aikido memory could be being seriously challenged here.

    The lower arm guarding arm (which must project with intent and without tension - easier said than done) is critical in keeping the thrusting knife edge away from tori. Its possible that a small ammount of turn of body and arm may take uke/attacker further offbalance, if the sewing-machine jabs continue prior to executing tenshinage like finality - but this is getting deep into the fleeting transience of the attack and its adaptation i.e. the attacker is not just going to do what you want


    Also in pic 1, tori could use the atemi, to set up a second atemi, backhand/slap to further stun/unbalance attacker, if tori's alignment is not optimal i.e. mitigation.
     
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The problem embra is. This is one way ,fighting of any kind must be spontaneous and instinctive. AND AGGRESSIVE.

    We train ALWAYS to get off line.

    Even if it is an unarmed attack..we treat it as if a knife is involved. This has caused us to throw out (from self defence) anything that takes more than a second to apply.

    The basic principles apply..who knows what "technique" will accompany them.

    After a particularly nasty real confrontation I attempted to get the same realism into the dojo training. Despite some really hard knocks there is always the "uncertainty" missing.

    Fact of life "You will never "know" until it happens."
    Attitude Awareness and the ability to go from zip to 100% attack.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The 'uncertainty' factor is a fact of life - not just in MA and street self-defense - without the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle we simply would not have the world of Electronics, Nuclear power etc.

    Nothing is certain, least of all self-defense, and especially when out pops edged weaponary.

    I completely agree on a) speed is essential, b) exactly what gets executed and what 'name' it has is not codifiable and c) you will never recreate the uncertainty and ferocity real-life action in the dojo.

    I can say that I have found in TaiChi pushing hands (with Dan Docherty's guys) an excellent way to explore uncertainty at close quarters with plenty of swings in adrenal rush, albeit without the all-out aggression of a real situation or the edged weaponary factor.
     
  17. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    I've removed the posts by Mider1985 and replies to him from the last two pages of this thread. Please don't post any comments directed at him - he wont be able to reply.

    Thread reopened :)
     
  18. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Thanks for reopening the thread Anth

    To Marc this is the first I've heard of you tbh and this thread has made one hell of an impression. (Sorry if that sounds patronising coming form me. I've spent a good few minutes trying to think of how to put it)
    Plus to everyone else who's posted thanks for making this the most interesting and informative thread I've read on martial arts :cool:
     
  19. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    Yeah, this thread has some fantastic discussion, I'm glad its able to continue... :)
     
  20. Marc MacYoung

    Marc MacYoung Valued Member

    That's pretty much what I'm talking about. Given that there are two basic kinds of physics that you will be facing
    1) he's charging in to stab you
    2) he's hanging back and stabbing/slashing

    you are going to either
    1) have him coming to you or
    2) you're going to have to go to him

    Both require you get offline and temporarily suppress his knife arm and THEN act before he can regain control of that arm. Here's the real wicked problem, if you manage to suppress it and then you attempt to control or break it you increase the chances of him getting control back. If that happens you WILL get cut and he'll still be on his feet.

    If you opt to move onto the takedown there's a chance that as he's going down he can still slash you with the knife. This may not be an intentional 'attack' but a wild flailing action.

    BUT ... and this is important folks ... there is NO guaranteed safe way to handle a knife attack that you don't run the serious risk of getting carved. Unfortunately, too many people are seeking that and most so-called 'knife defenses' focus too much on trying to gain control of the weapon and not enough on removing the guy's ability to attack.
     

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