So What are the problems with the "Agreement" ?

All school owners should have received their copy of the franchise, if they were invited to join. So this is an opertunity to lay out specific problems with it and hopefuly all concerned can " POINT COUNTERPOINT" , What is wrong or misunderstood about this whole mess. Please give section / Item you are refering to.

I.E. Texas Addendum 24 / C.

 

We’ve read it and will get together with a lawyer later this afternoon. As far as we can tell right now it doesn’t seem too bad, not for existing schools anyway but still there are some items in there that make you wonder…..,what if they plan on enforcing this or that and it’s quite vague the way some items are worded.

I think this new thread is a great idea and hopefully many will read and reply to it. Of course it might take a while until those that supposed to sign it are clear on their decision. Can’t take too long though, after all…18 days…ASAP !!

It would most certainly be beneficial to know what others think and say about it, also one might ‘see’ something in it that another has overlooked.

Unjee

 

KSWA is not going to bend.

 

O.K. dbt4581, what is ti they need to or should bend that bothers you ?
I asked for specifics not broad statements, thank you.

I have my list, just want to see what others are bothered by, and / or if I am interpreting it correctly.

 

Well you started this. Post your problems maybe it will get the ball rolling!

 

O.K. when the lawyer goes, “hmmm, well, I’m not sure what to make of this, this could mean, gotta watch it with this one”…..makes you feel a little uneasy.

Well, he will look through everything again and we’ll get back together Friday.
His main concerns are statements like, “we reserve the right to change or modify procedures”, “revise occasionally”, “reserve the right to change procedures from time to time” etc.
Yes, we understand those who start the “game” get to call the shots.

When it comes to statements like “we reserve the right to change …(stuff as we please), a lot of people have to deal with crap from the credit card companies because of such statements. (Please don’t bring it up; yes everybody should know what they get themselves into when they accept credit cards, it’s just an example.)

Let’s say HQ wants every KSW School to have the same street sign which says, for example, KSW of Chicago, or KSW of …. ,whatever town or part of town you are located at, then you will have to put a new one up even though the one you have now is perfectly fine. Some schools have street signs that state simply “Martial Arts” and people are led to the point what type of MA it is, in this case Kuk Sool Won, once they enter the facility. Now if some fork over the money to have a new sign made there is Article XII on page 33. What if they do “modify the Trademarks” or “abandon the System altogether” as stated? Will we have to make new signs, have new uniforms etc. every time they (HQ) change their minds?

Maybe I’m seeing this wrong, we’ve been talking for over 3 hours about this and with language that isn’t used on a regular basis, not by us anyway (which doesn’t make us incompetent but it’s just a different world) and the lawyer throwing his legal jargon into it on top of that, it’s not that easy to understand everything clearly.

When it comes to gross sales - Item 6, page 7, other fees, explanatory notes # 2.
Maybe I don’t understand it right but are we supposed to tell them what profit we make on the items we buy from Gaya Won and share those profits? Maybe I’m just completely confused and if so, please set me straight. Also, this is where the audit comes into play.

That membership and testing fees “may increase” bothers me, because I have a feeling this might happen soon.

When it comes to Article XII page 33, “modification of system”, I wonder what others think of that.

Sure looks like I have more questions than answers. (only questions, no answers. Why the heck did we go to a lawyer??) Sorry.

Unjee

 

Unjee, that ( article XII ) is on my list also... I read it to say;
We call the shots, you do as we say. Whatever, whenever.

Also concerning the Confidentialty and non-competition agreement,

I understand it to mean everything I've PAID to learn is not mine to keep.
They.. the Franchisor...owne these... techniques...and other items. I realy dont think this part is inforceble but who wants to spend the $$$ to defend yoursef when opting out will nulify this.

Probably the bigist problem I have is that my contract is no longer witn In Hyuk Suh, as I was promised, I guess I feel He abandined me and left me to his family to pick-over.

Look who you'r going into the contract with, it is NOT the Grand Master.

More to follow......

 

I wouldn't consider this news, though perhaps it is for you. The very first seminar I attended, we were advised that Kuk Sa Nym might not be teaching seminar for very much longer. He retired from demonstrating before I started KS.

And for all the discussion about pictures disappearing from the Master's page, nobody's mentioned that Kuk Sa Nym's picture disappeared this summer.

I think 70 is quite a reasonable age for retirement, if that is what the retiree desires to do.

 

Just got off the “Why do masters leave the Won” thread and think I’ll post this here also WITH A PURPOSE!
Those that read this go and ask your Master, Instructor, School owner and find out what their real feelings are about the agreement.

I keep reading the franchise papers over and over and it seems that once you sign it even though there are things that don’t seem too bad, in the end the WKSA owns your rear end. (Not Kuk Sa Nim but those that are to run the show in the future anyway)

Who knows, maybe some Masters stay and sign because they make plenty money and the few extra bucks they might have to shed out won’t hurt them. They might not think that far that there is a possibility that they have to shed out more money than they like to for major changes (according to the agreement) in the future. I wonder how the smaller schools are going to deal with that.

Others might not really think about what these papers entail and trust the Association blindly, can’t wait for the first fit that comes out of this.

Then there most likely will be a number of Masters or School owners which disagree with signing these papers but do it anyway because they have no clue whatsoever what to do without the Association. Like a child, lost in the mall without mommy.

Fact is; those that sign will have to be prepared to make changes in the future to their school, signs, uniforms, the way and what they teach, even the trademark symbol.

IF I AM WRONG PLEASE SET ME STRAIGHT.

emberKSW
I think Kuk Sa Nim deserves to retire but it would have been nice if he had made some demands on how things are to be run in the future. No need for a franchise. He gave card blanche to people who most obviously have more the business than the art and/or tradition in mind.

Unjee

 

I haven't really been keeping track of this stuff, but dang. They have got some pretty heavy language in that contract.

Would anyone mind giving me the tl;dr version of recent Kuk Sool Won schools? I know they were recently talking about doing something to the schools. Is that the agreement?

 

.If you have your "package", follow along.....

"Dear School Owners:

After......Although you are an Existing School Owner, and the contents of the FDD will not have any effect as to how you own and operate your existing School...."

This statement is misleading and untrue.

RECEIPT

" This Disclosure....
The franchise sellers are Samonim Suk Hui Suh ans Master Alex Suh...."

We are no longer Kuk Sa Nims School Owners as he promised.

Addendum to WKSA, LLC Franchise Agreement:

1. "....all terms and conditions of the agrement shall remain in full force and effect."

You Must read the contract. And the FDD you were told to ignore explaines some of it.

5. "The franchisor has the right to obtain, by any means, all student records of the school."



8. 4.1 " Franchisor shall supply......"

shouldn't they already know what our schools look like?

9. b. " if the franchisor determins......"

This will be more $$$ fram the school owner.

10. a. READ SECTION 4.3 (C)

This could mean you would end up purchasing all your supplies through Gaya Won, or vendors that give WKSA a cut of your purchases. Again read the FDD.

11.

Why ? Still more $$ from my pockett.

12.

come on if I want to do a promotion of 2 for 1 for a short while at my school why should I need permision from H.Q. ?




Thats all fore now more later if you want / need it.

 

Yohan

No clue what the tl;dr....means.
If you want to know what's going on, here is the super short version.....

In Hyuk Suh, founder of Kuk Sool Won

He wants to retire *stop*
wife and son will run the show *stop*
turn it into mega $$$ business or so they think *stop*
came up with the idea to franchise a traditional korean martial art *stop*
franchise papers "agreement" arrived at the Kuk Sool Won school owners doors *stop*
agreement sucks *stop*
we got something to talk about *stop*

By the way, how do you know that they have "pretty heavy language in that contract" ?
Did you read the contract or did you determine that by these few posts?
If you've read it maybe you or somebody you know could help to decipher the legal language to help these school owners, yes?

OB

 

Well Alrighty then..... I thought with all the complaints there would be more comments.

 

Just curious about Mrs. Kuk Sa Nim. Is she ranked in kuk sool? Is she an instructor or merely a business partner sort of thing.

 

The second thing, unless you count the joke Kuk Sa Nim always makes about the wife being one degree higher in rank.

 

O.K., I was sure that there would be a lot more people responding to it but after talking to numerous school owners and others, (their Instructors, students, a couple of students from the College who are knowledgeable about business issues etc.) it is obvious that many people don’t have a clue what to do and maybe this is the reason why nobody responds. People might hope somebody else will point things out.

Everybody, listen to your lawyer and I hope you got a good one and then go with your gut. I really wish I had something better to say.

Fact is, this Agreement is NOT with our Grandmaster In Hyuk Suh.
It is with Master Alex Suh and Kuk Sa Nim’s wife Suk Hui Suh.
“THEY” are running the show now.

This agreement is in some places so contradictory and written so you basically are in their vice. It is in fact a lot “worse” for new schools and I am only talking about already existing schools. It leaves open many questions which will be answered AFTER you signed. There are several points that bother me tremendously and I wish I had the time to bring it all up. Let me think for a minute.

Unjee

 

Check on things like…

Membership fee: $10 to $50 per student. “Membership fee may change from year to year”.
This could mean; now its 10 bucks, next year its 50 bucks.

Testing fee; $350 to $1500 per student. “Testing fees may change from year to year”.
Now, its $350 to $1500 from 1st degree going up with every degree you earn. Since it “may change” who is to say that 2nd degree won’t cost you in the future $1000, 3rd $1100, 4th $1200 or who is to say you won’t have to pay $350 for you 1st degree and $1500 for every degree after that? It’s open for them to decide.

I have no money problems but not everybody can shed out cash like that. Also, I am in close contact with every student for a time of 2.5 to 4 years until they earn their black belt. I, not KSN or anybody else trains, sweats, cries and laughs with these students. I put everything I got into each and every one of the students and they get the cash on that. Don’t get me wrong, I’m NOT saying that “I” earned or deserve that money, but I know if they raise the fees some of the students might never get their belt.

Audit: cost of audit plus interest on underpayment.
This is waived for an existing school that signs the existing school addendum.
What is? the fee or the Audit itself? Why is an audit needed anyway? We keep books and have nothing to hide but this is not a frigging McDonald where an owner can buy buns and burgers from another supplier and sell it for profit. There should be some trust here. Some people that want to open a school have been members for who knows how long. They are now being treated like strangers. Besides these are tough times and students leave or they might not buy a new Uniform even though they need to.

Indemnification: You must indemnify us if we incur losses arising out of the operation of your franchised school.
I could fill 3 pages just on that.

I got a few more minutes, let me think.

Unjee

 

Is this really fact? Who has told you this?

 

Here are a couple of things that make me feel a wee bit queasy…….sentences like;

We may modify the standards and specifications occasionally…..based on research, experience and “our general business plan”.

What exactly is this plan? It is not exactly prescribed in the agreement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

We may designate at any time or for any reason a single supplier for any products and require you to purchase exclusively, from that designated supplier, which exclusive designated supplier may be us or an affiliate.
(A little problem with the grammar here but I get it.)

I understand buying items from the Gaya Won shop and not having KSW pants made by a local seamstress but this could mean anything from the belts to the training mats, from the sparing gear to the street signs.
There is a lot more to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To make this a little shorter……

If you are leasing the location where you have your school they want all the details, basically if you default in any way, HQ will send somebody to take over and tell you to take a hike.

Sooner or later they have the right to tell you how your school and everything that has anything to do with KSW is supposed to look which means everything from the floor to the ceiling from the stationary to the advertising.
THEY CAN EVEN CHANGE THE KSW SYMBOL AND LOGO.

I’m running out of time but there is so much more.
One thing I would like to know is from those that have the agreement,

Please, go to page 20, Item 13, Trademarks. Let me know what exactly you make of this.

The USPTO rejected several attempts by our affiliates to register the mark KUK SOOL WON™. Thus we do not have a federal registration for our principal trademark. If our right to use the trademark is challenged you may have to change to an alternative trademark which may increase your expenses.

Also go to page 21, Item 14, Patents, Copyrights and Proprietary Information.
I’m still a little confuddled about that one.

In general, if you know something about anything, please let others know.
Got to go. Thanks.

Unjee

 

Yes, a TESS search from the Patent Office shows that indeed, "Kuk Sool Won" is not a registered trademark with legal standing and has been abandoned and free to use by anyone since March 1998.

As such, it looks like most schools separating from the Won need not change their names.