Dennis Jones

[adouglasmhor]

Originally Posted by Mike Flanagan

And yes, reputation in door-work does count for a lot. I had a colleague and good friend who prided himself on never having hit anyone. I had to keep saying "Fine, lovely even, just don't let the punters hear you say that!".

Mike

I was proud of only having hit three people in 20 years door work, you and your mate have made me think I was only good not great now

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally Posted by adouglasmhor

I was proud of only having hit three people in 20 years door work, you and your mate have made me think I was only good not great now

You're better than me, I hit about 5 people in 3 years if I remember rightly. There were one or two times when (IMO) my mate should have hit someone but didn't.

Mike

[fire cobra]

Originally Posted by Mike Flanagan

Hi fire cobra

Nice solid straight right. Wouldn't want to be hit by it. If I have one criticism its that there's a slight telegraph on the first few punches. On a couple of them you hold the shoulder and arm back just for a moment before firing it.

That may sound odd criticism coming from someone who's not criticising Dennis Jones for the same thing. But I think the difference is that you're starting from a more conventional face on (sparring?) position, ie. with your hands in a guard, and throwing quite a straight punch. For my money, from there should only be one direction to go in - forwards (of course, its one thing me saying that but its another thing achieving that in all my techniques myself). The way Dennis is walking around the bag I think is meant to be achieving the element of surprise and confusing the opponent about what's coming. Combined with the round punches its quite a different beast.

Thanks for posting. Like I said, I wouldn't want to be hit by you

Thanks bro I appreciate your comments,Ill pay some more attention to the start positions and telegraphing

[fire cobra]

Originally Posted by Snoop

Nice punches Fire cobra, quick hands

Dennis Jones is working on a one punch KO on the street. What would be hopeless telegraphing in a ring needn't be on the street with the right set up.

As to the amount of power he's generating, its a huge amount. Anyone who can't see that has no idea what they're looking at. He hits with incredable force..

Thanks Snoop

[Putrid]

Originally Posted by puma

Anyone trained with Dennis Jones? My friend has just shown me 2 videos of him trying to hit a bag on youtube. His technique really is terrible, just like a pub drunk swinging wildly. My friend tells me Jones does a lot of seminars and articles, but I think he may be winding me up because I can't believe it from the videos. Is he telling me the truth?

Hi,

Dennis Jones is a friend of mine and I have also trained with him.He asked me to post a few comments as he is too busy to go into a detailed discussion about some of the comments made on this thread but said he will write a reply within the next week and email it to me so I can post it here.

Just a bit on his background.Dennis started in Kyokushinkai karate in 1973 and passed his shodan grading in 1980.I believe he finished in third place in the European championships when he was a brown belt. These days he is ranked at 5th dan in Shikon karate and is also a qualified Wu style Tai Chi teacher.He dosen't do many seminars,around five since 2005,including one with Gavin Mulholland at SENI.He used to have a colum in Martial Arts Illustrated magazine called "Samurai on the Door" that ran for a few years.He has extensive experience of working on the doors of the Medway,one of the roughest areas of the UK.Between 1980 and 2006 he was involved in around two thousand violent incidents.That works out at around two incidents per week when things turned physical and force had to be used.

Its difficult to understand exactly what he does from watching a vdieo clip but this explanation on WOMA might help you understand the way he strikes.

http://www.woma.tv/movies/3Q/street-...hniques-1.html

The bio-mechanics of his "wild swings" can be found in almost all tai chi forms and if you practice tai chi its quite easy to pick up the way he strikes.The bag in the first clip weighed around 100lb and was very dense,hence the reason it dosen't swing far when hit.The bag in the clip Mike posted from a recent seminar was lighter but filled with sand and lead shot.His striking evolved out of need and wasn't the result of studying kata and trying to fit it into the fight.There was only one way and that was the way that worked.He refers to his strikes as "cuts" that aim to pole-axe the opponent with one hit.If anyone hits harder I have yet to meet them and I have trained with some people who are regarded as being at the top of their game.Dennis's strongest point,and I have rarely seen it in other martial artists,is that he is a master of deception and positioning.The opponent falls into a trap and almost sets himself up,hence the hands being at the side and not having to worry about telegraphing.

Dennis has said he is interested in meeting up with anyone who is interested in what he does for either a chat or some training.He's a nice guy,very down to earth without a big ego,and certainly not the sort to beat people up because they have "dissed his method".The fact that he posted the clip of himself falling over after knocking the bag off its mounting would indicate he is secure in what he does and dosen't mind others having a laugh at his expense.

Tony

[Van Zandt]

Thanks for the excellent response Tony

[ap Oweyn]

Looked pretty good to me. As for telegraphing and then leaving the arm extended after the punch, it looked like a training exercise to me. I certainly emphasize certain components of a technique when I'm trying to teach a certain principle. So that an observer would see things that I wouldn't do if I were performing the technique at speed. Not really fair to judge based on that.

As for keeping his hands low, perhaps he's practicing for that environment in particular. After all, you're not walking around the pub with your hands up in a boxing guard. Right? So learning to generate the same sort of power from a different starting point would be a valuable experience.

Last point: Roy Jones, Jr. and Prince Naseem also don't punch the way I punch. And I think it'll be safe for me to go on record as saying they've knocked out a fair few more people than me. Just because a fighter's method doesn't look textbook, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Seems like it ought to mean that. But it doesn't.


Stuart

p.s. Based on how that bag in the first clip absorbed the shots, it looks heavier than the norm. Denser. I was impressed.

[Van Zandt]

Just because a fighter's method doesn't look textbook, that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Quote of the year.

[puma]

Roy Jones and Hamed was quite an ironic choice, as both had their hands by their kness most of the time! Great fighters. They certainly didn't telegraph anything - except when showboating. They do however, following cetain methods of punching, and both are similar although one is southpaw. I certainly wish I was a fast as Roy Jones in his prime!

I don't remember anyone mentioning his (Dennis Jones) hands being down. Maybe I missed that bit, but having the hands low I can understand. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you do it properly.

[ap Oweyn]

Originally Posted by puma

Roy Jones and Hamed was quite an ironic choice, as both had their hands by their kness most of the time! Great fighters. They certainly didn't telegraph anything - except when showboating. They do however, following cetain methods of punching, and both are similar although one is southpaw. I certainly wish I was a fast as Roy Jones in his prime!

I don't remember anyone mentioning his (Dennis Jones) hands being down. Maybe I missed that bit, but having the hands low I can understand. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you do it properly.

It's actually not ironic. The point is that all the fighters mentioned do something outside of the constraints of textbook punching. And that all should be judged not on their failure to adhere to that aesthetic, but on the results they achieve in doing so. Hameed and Jones, Jr. have been. Their fight records speak for themselves. Real life is a little more complicated, as these things 1) don't often get committed to tape for review and 2) involve variables that are generally isolated out in a ring sport.

That said, you're weighting one piece of evidence very heavily indeed, while dismissing others entirely. Now, you're free to do so, obviously. It's only an opinion, after all. On both our sides.

I'm telling you that his technique looked fine, given what he's trying to achieve with it. His track record appears to be quite good. And, watching him perform movements from more traditional material, it's clear to me that he has a thorough grounding in those.

Seems to me, though, that if it were a real priority to get a sense for what he can and cannot do, then taking him up on an invitation to train is the most logical course of action.


Stuart

[puma]

Hamed and Jones actual punching technique was within the constraints of textbook punching. Their technique was correct. The way they fought, the angles they produced, etc, though, was different from the norm. For instance, it is normally said not to lead with an uppercut from the outside, yet Jones did it frequently, and it obviously worked. It worked because it was unexpected. The actual uppercut itself though, was textbook stuff. The movement, timing, and when it was thrown was not. So I don't think that was a great example. Watch Jones throw a lead left hook, then watch Mayweather, and they will look pretty much the same. This is because it is 'textbook' as you put it. The way they do it is obviously the most effective, otherwise they wouldn't do it that way. Their styles of fighting however, are different. The topic of this thread was the punching demonstrated and how they were thrown.

What piece of evidence am I relying heavily on, and what am I dismissing? I didn't get that bit.

I know thugs that have knocked people out. But it doesn't mean they have good technique, and certainly doesn't mean if they had a punch-up in a pub with a trained fighter they would win, because they almost certainly wouldn't. They fight other idiots, so what does that prove?

[ap Oweyn]

Dude, you've got your mind made up. And that's fine. It's not like I'm drawing royalties from the guy. Nor do I think he's the second coming. If you think these video clips are rubbish, that's fine. My view differed and I said as much.

Going round and round in rhetorical circles isn't going to resolve this. Personally, if I were airing this sort of critique, I'd want some firsthand experience with the guy to work from. But that's just me.


Stuart

[Putrid]

Originally Posted by puma

I know thugs that have knocked people out. But it doesn't mean they have good technique, and certainly doesn't mean if they had a punch-up in a pub with a trained fighter they would win, because they almost certainly wouldn't. They fight other idiots, so what does that prove?

Well that's about it.Dennis Jones is a trained fighter and most of the people he fought were not trained fighters.That dosen't make them any less dangerous as most of them had a different skill set to martial artists,far more sneaky and not playing by any rules.As Dennis has told me,there are no Bruce Lee's in the street,just scumbags who are out to mess you up.Good technique dosen't come into it.The real requirement is technique that works and lets you go home in one piece.

I don't remember anyone mentioning his (Dennis Jones) hands being down. Maybe I missed that bit, but having the hands low I can understand. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you do it properly.

Properly? Is there a proper way of holding the hands when walking around in a pub?

[puma]

No. That wasn't the point. The point was being able to punch correctly from wherever your hands are. I wasn't refering to how the hands are held, although reading back on what I wrote I can see that maybe I wasn't clear.

[robertmap]

Originally Posted by Putrid

The real requirement is technique that works and lets you go home in one piece.

VERY WELL SAID - That's it - if your martial art teaches you that then job done and keep practicing. If it doesn't teach you that, keep looking and practicing. Either way keep practicing

All the best.

Robert.