:star: Hear, hear!!! Here's another thought...what if Kaori & Mike KJN were each a part of the family for many years before they even found each other...& nobody involved wants a "WKSA divorce" if they can help it....? What if they're "pausing for just one second" to avoid snapping the knee, as we say in training...? Again...fumbling for a positive slant to a sad situation...& just throwing it out there. Thoughts?
No arguing here... just my 2 cents..in my experience...while WKSA is indeed a business, money is not the primary motivation. In most businesses, money is the only one.
Grappling Seminar I recently had been afforded the opportunity to partake in one of the Houston metro area grappling seminars former KSW KJNs Jan Butler and Frank D'amato presented at various schools. They were great classes, and it was readily apparent that everyone learned some very valuable applications. The school I attend no longer identifies itself with the WKSA; consequently, additional material has been presented in the form of a seminar. It’s my understanding the grappling seminars will again be offered at other school(s) in the area in the near future. When the seminar was offered at the school I attend, participants from other schools as well as the general public were welcome to attend. I for one am appreciative of the opportunity to learn the additional self defense tactics. It only makes for a more well rounded martial artist. It’s not the destination that counts, but the journey getting there! Thanks to my school owners for sticking to their guns, and making it a great journey.
AFAIK he trained in plain old collegiate style wrestling since high school, but obviously liked it enough that he did additional training in such sports. IDK if he ever studied Jiujitsu or BJJ, and I think the reference in another post that the seminar he gave was based on BJJ was merely speculation. FWIW.
There was a lot of speculation about this even on another website's forum. You can google it. It is my understanding that no one actually took a pic or video of KJN Butler training inside a BJJ studio...but have seen him in person, in action, and analyzed that the seminar movements were fundamentally introductory BJJ movements. I think that is where the speculation comes from...not necessarily who, where and why....but the fact that the grappling movements and material shown was BJJ, or something VERY similar to it.
It looks like Pasadena has left the Won. Their website has changed, they even got a new flag, "Kuk Sool of Pasadena". I wonder how much longer until Kuk Sa Nim is putting his foot down to stop this franchise crap. Unjee
It seems that KSN'd rather to loose the best people in WKSA than stop the crap... Business come first! $$$
Letter to Kuk Sa Nim English version: http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac324/Onatop/LettertoKukSaNim.jpg Spanish version: http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac324/Onatop/LettertoKSN-Spanish.jpg Korean version: http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac324/Onatop/LettertoKSN-Korean.jpg Onatop
Interesting thought, but lets not forget that people get the sort of organization that they seek out. For instance, if a person does not want to work hard for legit advancement, they may seek-out a school that "sells" rank, or is at least very flexible in their requirements. Later on, however, when they find their practice is not what it should be or that people of lesser standing can outperform them, they try to blame the teacher for not delivering what that teacher said he would. Is that really the case? Didn't the consumer know that they were joining a person of marginal standards? In like manner, I find it hard to believe that people who joined the WKSA didn't have some inkling of the nature of the group they were joining. Garish uniforms, exotic practices, questionable history and elitist management should have combined to present a pretty suspicious organization. Personally, I think it has only been since conflicts have begun to have a more personal impact that individuals have begun to stand-up and be heard. Until then, conflicts were always something that happened with "somebody else". Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
I can agree with what you say to a certain degree, Bruce. Most of the stuff WRT *red flags* going off inside your head did not mark the organization at the outset (easily attained rank, garish uniforms, to name a few). FWIW, the claim that IHS's grandpa was a master instructor of the Korean Royal Court was also not advertised as the history of the original sect (er, I mean MA) that I signed on with so many years ago (so much for "questionable history" then - and referring to any MA as chinese, korean, japanese, etc. is a newfangled notion). As far as "elitist management" goes, they used to shy away from micromanaging every little detail under the roof of each and every dojang. So the franchising of the system seems to be the catalyst that brought that objection to a boil. There's a lot to be said about incrementalism playing a major role in the development of the WKSA. The franchise just seems to be the "straw that broke the camel's back" for many devotees of KSW.
Yeah, I would totally disagree with this. Many of the issues that are discussed here have become much more prevailent over the last few years and even months as the younger Suh generation is slowly taking over. Also, these issues don't jump out at a new student who is walking through the front door. To say that many of the fine individuals that I trained with at my school were looking for this type of management etc. etc. etc. is just douche baggery at it's finest. Cue Bruce.
Got to be honest with you Bruce, when I started KS or so years ago, all I was interested in was an MA that seemed to deliver a bit of everything that I was interested in at the time. I was looking for Aikido classes and couldn't find one near enought for me to get to. I tghought of Tai Chi / Kung Fu and there was nothing. The only ,artial art where I stayed (sorry lived) was Tai Kwon Do which my children had tried and hated. I found KS and it gave me Hyung that were soft or hard as required. It gave me techniques (by the way what is the Korean for tehcniques?) akin to Aikido and it gave me so much more, e.g. weapons. Now the "garish uniforms" and the "questionable history" and the other issues that have since have come to the fore are very annoying, but not so much so in the U.K. wrt the franchise (although noone knows what the future holds), but the art that I am learning, whatever the origins) is fun. Now whether or not this has any bearing on why Masters leave the Won but I don't personaly think that garish uniforms and questionable history is the reason why they do. However, I get the feeling that the reasons why they do is as varied and as many as there are Masters that leave. Although thanks for making me think (as you always do) Bruce.
Lotsa very thoughtful responses. Many thanks to one and all. My own pursuit of KMA has a lot more to do with historical tradition, but thats not to say that everyone is looking for the same thing.....or would even want to. I'll also go a step farther and hold that not everyone SHOULD be looking for the historical traditions unless that is their goal. Over the years I have talked more than a few people who submitted to a particular take on MA just to get the training they were looking for and a trade-off like that can grate like fingers on a blackboard after a while. I think I also have to go with the idea that the dissatisfaction currently being expressed is, honestly, only come to a boil recently, though I am not sure if I lay it all at the door of the franchize agreement. Rather, I think the "straw-that-broke-the camel's-back" is apt and that there may have been things simmering for much longer but held unexpressed. Folks actually IN the organization know more about this than I. BTW: I think I remember doing some math about the grandfather serving in the Court as a h2h instructor and came up with him being about 17 at the time he was said to have been there. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Letter to Kuk Sa Nim Sorry for the re-posting, but this a better way to read the letter to Kuk Sa Nim. It can be read in PDF. http://web.me.com/clisanchezr/Letter_to_KSN/Home.html Thanks Onatop
Opinions Vary Well miyu, maybe the "best" people in WKSA are still there? Opinions vary. I think KSN would rather loose a few Instructors than loose the entire organization. What do you think? As far as it being all about the money - IMO that dog don't hunt. (see my post 751 Franchise thread). The bottom line is that Kuk Sool Won is a great MA and people criticize what they don't understand. e.g. franchise, garish uniforms, exotic practices,....Heck I don't understand all of it either. What I do understand is that I love Kuk Sool Won, as do you, (I can tell from your passion in your post). I know there is a wealth of knowledge in Kuk Sa Nim regardless of where it originated from. And I know that his successor(s) have the capabilities of carrying on the tradition into the future. And if I get my butt kicked by a BJJ person then I should have trained harder in Kuk Sool Won. We are all brothers and sisters in Kuk Sool Won we should have as much patients with our leader as he has had with us. Of course this is just my POV take it FWIW.
I do know that at least one other KSW master that he works with has studied BJJ, though--because he said so.
I'm by no means Jan's drinking buddy, so I'm not privy to such info. Thanks for enlightening me, AZeitung. No doubt, this is where we differ in opinion, Obewan (or should I say, Padawan?). I am not dismissing the physical talents of Sung Jin Su, as anyone can clearly see that for themselves. As for Alex, that's another thing altogether. Having known him since he was an obnoxious teenager, it's difficult for me to recognize if he has changed much since then (okay, he has matured a little), and to put a positive spin on things one could say he is merely "overconfident." But regardless of my assessment or yours, the real question boils down to what tradition is it that they are to extend? WKSA is nothing more than yet a another MA organization that teaches a variation of HKD. And maybe you might have a problem accepting that statement, but most people *on the outside looking in* would agree. I suppose since IHS supposedly started the KSW when he was only 18 years old, it didn't seem preposterous to him that an unseasoned youth could be a "master instructor" to the military of the korean royal court. LOL
