Origin of Flying Kicks?

Origin of Flying/Jumping Kicks?

Started a discussion in another thread about the origin of flying kicks.

The basic argument between myself and SoKKlab consists of:

some are led to believe it was used against a mounted attacker.
I also suggested that they have little use against an unmounted attacker, as a standing punch/kick would be more/just as effective.

some think that this would be pointless on the battlefield as warriors had weapons to do this job for them.

Off the battlefield people always carried weapons with them,
and the origin

Am interested to know what other peoples views on this are?

 

I really dont know. All I know is from the 'stories' passed down that they were used to dismount riders by peasants who had no/poor weapons. There is certainly no reason for e.g. a samurai to learn it as they have heavy armour and long weapons.

 

I don't think this is that relevant to the use of flying kicks, as the jumping/flying kicks tend to have come from an Asian MA background.

I have seen many different versions of these kicks, some practical, some showy.
What was it's practical origin over a normal standing kick

 

I've also heard this 'knocking people off horses' idea, which strikes me as a little silly. 'Flying kicks' are almost entirely useless for any realistic sparring competition (though the odd competitor is capable of pulling one off - even then, its still highly risky), and definitely a very bad idea on the street. However, they do look cool.

One of my ZSK instructors once made the argument that jumping and spinning techniques serve as a good test of co-ordination. He also claims that a jumping technique is useful for clearing obstacles. I'm not convinced, but thought I'd mention them anyway.

 

The only way I can see a flying or jumping kick would have been useful for a peasant defending or attacking is if they are jumping from a higher elevation to a lower elevation. Their practical use at the very least is very small. The only reason I can see for them is they are flashy and fun to do. In a real world situation it would become obvious there were much better ways to do anything a jump or flying kick would do. This does not mean you could never use them but you are very hard pressed to find a situation that they are the most efficient way to go.

 

Jumping off of mountains

Greetings!

My research in TKD also buttresses this claim. Peasants employed unarmed aerial assaults onto cavalry warriors by hiding on the cliff of a mountain, for example, where they would be hidden from view, and waiting for a soldier to ride by. Once one does ride by, the peasant would leap off the cliff and execute a side thrust kick or a front push kick to dethrone the rider.

Admittedly, however, later, more complicated kicks, such as the 720 degrees spin kick and the hurricane kick were designed just to add complexity to tae kwon do. By the way, such additions are great ideas, since a 540 degree spin kick, for example, cannot be done without one forcefully twisting one’s hips. Hence, the 540 is a good exercise for teaching one to spin one’s hips when one is throwing punches, roundhouse kicks, etc.

Your brother in the martial arts,
Darting Viper

 

I question the practically of even this. I think I would just wait in those same bushes with a big rock or stick to knock them off of their horse. This seams like a much better solution to the problem.

 

Not true. Various Western Wrestling systems have taught use of the 'Drop' Kick for a LONG time, which you can still see in all its comedy within Pro-Wrestling.

Anything to do with Jumping, Peasants, Battlefields etc strikes me as being complete and utter excrement purported by dodgy instructors trying to market crapola to gullible westerners. The last place you'd want to be on the battlefield is jumping about with a bunch of lances, halbards, billhooks etc underneath you.

Most soldiers fought in some form of armour, no matter how rudimentary (even today-Kevlar Flak Jackets, helmets etc), whilst some were badly equipped and trained, they'd surely have the common sense not to go wasting valuable energy by leaping about and needlessly endangering themselves. And whilst you can move freely in armour of all sorts, most is too heavy to sproing about in.

To unhorse a rider you either cut the horses legs from under it, or unsaddle the rider by knocking, sweeping him out of the saddle. These actions were accomplished in the Occident and the Orient by the use of Pole-Arms to take down cavalry (Glaives, Halbards, Bill-Hooks, Naginatas etc), not by the Korean Formation Dancing Team in full flight....

 

I'd chance myself against a motor cycle rider with a sidekick. A horse however, is taller than a motorcycle.

 

I say at least a broken leg.

 

I meant flying sidekick.

And don't reply with "two broken legs"

 

Ok, the typically horse rider is almost six feet off the ground. So jumping from a low base up to that height is just not possible for the average person (and please don't get me started on the "people and monks could jump much higher back then.")

As for the high to low attack, while it makes for a good oral history we need to remember that oral histories are never considered as fact by historians, and for good reason. The Korean arts tend to have the dodgiest history for a variety of reasons, nationalism being chief amoung them.

When faced with attackers on horseback (who would most likely be weilding weapons) the average smart villiage wielded weapons as well (if nothing else rocks and stones).

It can make sense to use jumping as a method of closing in unarmed personal combat. And that's why its in there.

Additionally one must ask why, with the exception of the Korean and Modern Chinese arts, most martial arts don't emphasize jumping techniques (if they even contain them). This I think also leads us to question ideas like the usefulness against horses.

I hate to say it, but the technique used against horses was to trip them or lop off thier legs as they went running by.

- Matt

 

Flying kicks, especially in TKD, originates from the fact that many of the people these guys had to fight were on horseback, and these flying kicks served the purpose of knocking people off... At least that's the TKD origins, I'm not sure about other arts though, although I'd imagine it would be to serve a similar purpose...

 

good info, nice way to look at it...

 

One other thing. TKD's origin's for the most part are Shotokan, Karate. Tae Kyon (sp?) was a rural martial sport (somewhat like boxing). Anyone who tries to tell you anything else is either intentionally or unitentionally feeding you a line of horse pocky.

- Matt

 

TKD's origins

Greetings!

Tae Kwon Do most certainly entails strong influences from Shotokan karate. However, I can’t agree to your saying that “the most part” of TKD’s origin is Shotokan. Firstly, Shotokan karate contains no aerial movements, with the exception of maybe the leaping low x-block used to block an opponent who is kicking at your back. This block is executed by you leaping into the air, turning 180 degrees, and landing with your legs crossed, your body close to the ground, and your arms crossed low into the shape of an “x” protecting your groin and bladder. Other than this maneuver, there are no other aerial techniques that I know of. Tae kwon do, on the other hand, prides itself in aerial assaults, ranging from a simple jump-and-front kick to a complex 540 degree spin kick. Now, TKD may have been influenced by kempo, since kempo is the only other art that I know of that uses the 540 degree spin kick. For those of you who do not know what a 540 is or for those of you who call it by another name, here’s a description. Imagine a traditional TKD-style butterfly kick. Now, imagine landing a butterfly kick with the same leg that you kick with. The tucked-in leg never touches the ground throughout the entire technique. It is a very beautiful technique, I assure you!

Secondly, I mean no offense to TKD practitioners, but TKD (at least some of the styles that my friends take) do not emphasize power punching, at least not as much as Shotokan does. A typical Shotokan training session will have Shotokan trainees do nothing but twist their hips in order to get their belt to move from one side of their hips to the other for 10 or so straight minutes. The reverse punch is something that you work on constantly in Shotokan. I have seen TKD practitioners in action and, although their roundhouse kicks are fear-inspiringly powerful, their punches leave much to be desired. For an example, take a look at TKD black belt Pat Smith in the tournament Sabaki Challenge 1990. Although he won the tournament, you can tell that his punches were not that powerful due to a lack of hip involvement. He won through powerful roundhouse kicks delivered to his opponent’s head, by the way.

So, in my opinion, TKD could not have received that much inspiration from Shotokan, although some influence is apparent and cannot be reasonably denied.

Have a great day, Matt.

Your brother in the martial arts,
Darting Viper

 

DV,

The root of TKD is primarily Shotokan. This isn't an issue up for debate. It's been proven.

As far as Tae Kyon (again sp), it was a form of kickboxing practiced for sport in rural areas.

Ok, so where do the areal kicks come in (and hopefully folks like Thomas will keep me honest here... Thomas... please!). My understanding is that they are a relatively new addition to the system. I'd love to see the historical documents as far as level requirements from early TKD.

The thing to remember, and it's something that I've posted numerous times, is that while TKD might have started primarly as Shotokan, it's evolved into something uniquely Korean and has to be recognized as such. It's unfortunate, thought somewhat understandable however, that the powers that be in Korea would downplay the Japanese connection for cultural reasons.

Very few westerners understand the attrocites that Japan purpotrated in Korea or China for that matter leading up to and during the second world war. It's really unfortunately that we don't have a better handle on east Asian world history. Needless to say a lot of stuff went down and there were for quite a while (if not still today) deep scars from that time that have effected peoples behavior.

I'm sticking to my research until I hear differently. Areal maneuvers are a relatively new addition to TKD and I have yet to see compelling evidence that there is a historical precidence for them in Korea.

- Matt

 

This is a relevant point in the Western world. It would be obsurd to attempt to jump and kick a person mounted on something like a commonly used thoroughbred Horse.

If people took into account the size of the horses that were often used in mongolia and China (aka Przewalski), then it becomes much more realistic.

Przewalski
Height: 12 - 13.2 hands
i.e. 4-4.5 feet or 121-137cm
compared to an average Thoroughbred
15-17 hands
i.e. 5-5.6 feet or 152-172cm

on a battlefield, or with your horsecutting weapons drawn, then of course you would use that to take out the horse. but foot soldiers against mounted soldiers, they would have to come up with someway to deal with the mounted attackers, as they may not all be armed with the appropriate weapon.
the kicks were also designed to break the riders leg, you can imagine trying to put pressure in a sturip with a broken leg.

Many things are passed through word of mouth, this does make me take it with a pinch of salt, but considering the evidence for jumping kicks use against a mounted attacker, and the evidence of it's other use: Against a standing opponent who can move quickly in all directions from standing still?

 

Ah the old Shorter Horse Arguement...
Do I smell a certain desperation creeping in? Surely I think I do...

How about stating that 'Jumping Kicks' were only used Downhill against very short people on small horses on Saturdays with a Following Wind....

There's this weapon called a Bow and Arrow, it fires things that fly quickly and with much penetration at oncoming Cavalry, in fact in bands of Lightly armed skirmishing troops, a few individuals firing arrows in unison can create an arrow storm of nasty pointy things that penetrate most Armour.

Also Infantry are foot soldiers and the standard foot soldiers weapon of antiquity (even the peasant militia), was the Spear, which happens to be a great weapon for taking riders off horses, as it's long, sharp and pointy.

Repeat, the only evidence for historical usage of 'Jumping Kicks' on Battlefields and within Military engagements in Asian Martial Arts comes from dodgy second-hand B.S mongery propogated by those with an agenda, to sell product and shift units to the easily influenced.

 

SoKKlab, so far your arguments against my points have consited of partonising comments, and personal attacks. I believe this is largely used by people who have little to support their own argument, except by attempting to be-little their opposition. Does this bullying tactic work often for you?

Is this an old argument? I could have mentioned that earlier, but I assumed that people knew about this already.
I was bringing in the height of the horses, as it had been mentioned that it was not feasible to jump that high. This was therefore my defence against that argument.

I understand about bow's and arrows, and the use of spears. We have already covered what they were used for, but you have not made any point of justifying what you think the jumping/flying kicks were used for.

I might consider that I was being sold something if there was money involved, but I assure you my training comes at no profit to my teachers, and often at no cost at all except for their time and patience for me and my fellow students.