Okay, it seems a lot of people think that they're "too deadly" for competitions because their style teaches you to poke someone in the eye or whatever. I thought that instead of simply replying each time explaining my views on that, it would be a lot simpler just to make a thread to discuss it and then direct people to it. I thought that starting off with a list of the illegal techniques in Pride FC (one of the top two, and often considered the best, MMA competitions) and commenting on each. (the stuff in bold was copied and pasted from www.pridefc.com) 1 No head butting, eye gouging, hair pulling, biting or fish hooking. These may very well be useful in a fight. However, the last time any of you were ever in a fight, did you gouge out anyone's eyes? Probably not. Most street fights last a few seconds and consist of a few punches. 2 No attacking the groin If you get good at kneeing someone in the stomach or chest in a full contact competition, then it would be easy to knee them in the groin. The groin is lower to the ground than the other targets, which makes it easy to reach. Likewise with a front kick. It's just a different target for tools you have already developed. 3 No strikes (kicks, elbows, punching) to the back of the head (which includes the occipital region and the spine). The sides of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head. How often are you going to have access to the back of the head in a street fight anyways? Even if you do, it's still just another target. Use the same tools you use on the other areas of the head. 4 No small joint manipulation (control of four or more fingers/toes is necessary). Fingers and toes aren't all that great for controlling someone in a street fight anyways. They may have use, but not as much as good punching skill. 5 No elbow strikes to the head and face. This is the rules I hate the most. I love elbows and train them on the bag all the time. However, they cause cuts too much and had to be thrown out in most competitions. 6 No intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring. This rule doesn't really matter much IMO. In a street fight, you most likely won't have as much room as a boxing ring anyways. You shouldn't have to worry about this that much. 7 No running out of the ring. This is a pretty controversial topic when discussing sport vs self defense. However, the physical side of martial arts is about the actual combat. If you want to learn to run, don't do martial arts. 8 No purposely holding the ropes. Fighters cannot purposely hang an arm or leg on the ropes. Hanging on the ropes will result in an immediate warning. It could be argued that in a real fight you could hold on to things. However, if you do, you're still going to get hit. This isn't really that important IMO. 9 No kicks or knees to the head or the face of an opponent who falls face down. This is another rules I don't really like. People like Mirko "Cro Cop" Filopivic got a lot of KO's from soccer kicking people in the head when they were on the ground. However, in a street fight, if the guy is already on the ground, run. Don't worry about kicking him in the head. 10 No application of oil, ointment, spray, Vaseline, massaging cream, hair cream, or any other substances is permitted to any part of the fighter's body before and during the fights. The discovery of any of these substances will result in a disqualification. I don't think this is much of an issue. :lol: In conclusion, these rules aren't really that restrictive. Some of the illegal things aren't used very often in a street fight anyways. A lot of these don't require training to do (such as poking someone in the eye). Marching back and forth across the dojo doing eye pokes in the air won't make you any better at poking someone in the eye than your average joe. A lot of these things are just a matter of changing targets, which isn't hard. Also, if you have to practice sparring to get good at using a simple tool (ie a punch) to a large target (ie a human face), what makes you think doing an eye gouge in the air is going to help you do an eye gouge on a resisting person? Doing techniques in the air is a first step in the learning process. It is just to get an idea of how the technique works. Things like eye gouges often have to stay at this first step, and shouldn't be relied on.
They should get a CLF fighter in there to Leopard Fist someone in the throat and kill him ... That's a joke
Imho there is a "golden rule" that applies to martial arts. You fight like you train. If you strictly train in MMA rules then that is how you will fight in the streets. It's all about instinct. While a MMA's instinct might be to go for an armbar someone else who trained in Kina Mutai's 1st instinct is to rip at your eyes and bite. I've seen cheeks ripped out by fishhooks in streetfights and fingers broken from small joint manipulations. Can you imagine how many broken toes and fingers there would be in MMA if this was allowed? How many eye injuries would we have had by now if eye gouging was allowed? Those moves are restricted in MMA for a reason.
Yes, but the people who train those techniques don't train them realistically either. They are restricted to doing them in the air or on goggles unless they are insane and don't mind becoming blind for the sake of training.
Glad someone pointed out that very obvious, but important aspect ( i had a feeling it was going to be you aswell pankration ) Too some extent i agree with you... you can drill moves all your life, but if you don't test them or train them against a resisting opponent (like pankration says, realistically) then its pretty much useless... Boxing techniqes are a very important aspect of combat... maybe even more so than eye strikes and gouges... The thing that people don't understand about sports combat is all the techniqes in it are "safe". This doesn't mean they are harmless techniqes; This means they can be practised safely against a resisting opponent without causing any harm to them. This means you can practise, drill, and learn these techniques under the pressure of someone else trying to hit you before you hit them; under the pressure of fear and adrenaline so when it comes to crunch time, your alot more prepared than standing in a line, aimlessly drilling a technique against someone who rididly stands there awaiting your attack to miss him by 2 or 3 inches, so he can carelessly block it whilst letting a kiap rip.
I teach a MMA system and really enjoy NHB training for myself and my advanced students. OTOH, as a tactical instructor, I recognize there are valid sides to both sides of this debate. The NHB/MMA crowd point out that if you can't do it under adrenal stress against an opponent who fights back, you probably can't pull it off for real. The trad. and/or combat oriented crowd points out that there are many techniques and/or strategies that are more geared toward the streets or real combat that are not used or approppriate in sport. IMO, NHB-type sparring is a great tool for young, healthy athletes who have a solid base (usually advanced students) who want to take their training to a high level and can be about as close to real as you can safely train under controlled conditions (though for the street I would recommend some practical weapons work, too). This is a really good base to start from, but it is not appropriate for everyone. Nor is it, in my opinion the highest level for training towards combat, though I would agree that it is a valuable tool for those who seek to train at that highest level. It should be noted though that for most people, their interest in self defense is more of the stun and run variety and not to KO or submit an attacker. These people even include some world class fighters, and with legal considerations, this can make a lot of sense. Age, pre-existing injuries and other factors can influence whether or not NHB training is appropriate for some students as well. OK, now to the topic at hand. Looking at the list of barred techniques from "no holds barred" competition. Though the rules make sense for safety, they do restrict what can be done in a real fight. Elbows can cut and I don't let my students use them when we kickbox, either. We do train them regularly on pad and bagwork though. Small joint manipulation CAN be a VERY big factor if you are skilled with it. This is the entry point of most grappling and some systems like small circle jujitsu and Ryukyu kempo-jitsu focus heavily here. Striking to the back of the head and neck is trained quite a bit in American kenpo and this area is just as easily accessed to this type of strike as it is to a traingle choke. One rule that really favors grapplers quite a bit in such competitions (keep in mind that I began in JJ in 1971 and can bench press around 600 lbs.; I am not biased against grappling and groundfighting. I just am not in favor of it being portrayed unrealistically because it's the flavor of the month.) is the fact that you can not kick at the downed man. This changes the tecniques and strategies for both parties. The rule against both groin strikes, eye gouges and fishhooks eliminates a lot of counters that could be used. This tends to make many become blind to their own vulnerability to this. A couple of years ago in a work out with Frank Shamrock, we were working on ground fighting for the streets. We were working on striking from inside the opponents guard and Frank was leading the class. He was having us elbow to the inner thigh and strike down the center line. I asked him why we didn't just hit the groin to collapse their defense and Frank replied "Well, we all wear steel cups so the groin is pretty much a useless target". I reminded him this class was working on street fighting. Frank said Yeah, that would work great. This is not to show disrespect toward Frank, but even a fighter as good as he is can become blind to openings (and vulnerablities) that are excluded from training. It should be noted that the intent in combat is different when you are fighting for your life rather than fighting for sport. In sport, there is at least some mutual respect and you are trying to win an athletic victory rather than disable or kill your opponent. Close quarter combat ops is a bit different. So would a mother trying to protect her children, if you think that this is limited to who can emotionally do this, Athletes aren't going in to try to disable or kill their opponents as quickly as possible, so their choice of techniques and strategy reflect this. Just when you thought I was going to have a bias to the traditionalists who think that all they have to do is practice certain "lethal" techniques in the air and they could take out any NHB champ "if it were for real", I am going to set that record straight. Too many in the TMA's do not train with proper intent or intensity, mental or physical, to pull off what they think they can (BTW, I recognize there are many TMA practitioners who are very hardcore in their training and do practice with practical application in mind). The mindset and the physical training to pull this off takes more work than ost of these people are willing to do and they have a false sense of security that could get them really hurt if they try to rely on the "magic". I believe the awnser is to use more realistic training methods like kickboxing, submiision grappling, and NHB as a base for advanced students who choose to take it to this level. I do recommend that this is taken up more slowly and progressively than some testosterone-overloaded, wanna-be-macho-types, are doing. safety has to come first or else the student can't learn and the fighter can't progress. From this base, other drills working more lethal techniques can be incorperated as a secondary training method. This would include a lot of the things that many MMA enthusiasts are rebelling against, including one steps, forms, and even point sparring. If you have the MMA base, and train with a controlled strike to the groin or throat would break their hold or be a win rather than pretend the target doesn't exist or would not matter, I think this modified version of point sparring would have value. If you regularly train against opponents who fight back with full resistance, drills like one steps and katas can help you ingrain more lethal follow ups into your muscle memory. For what it's worth, this is my take on it.
Sorry but I disagree these rules are very restrictive. Simple things like pulling hair and headbutts, vertical elbows, kicking the head of a downed opponent are the staple of a lot of fights I have either been in or seen.
I would definitely say I fight differently on the street. I don't get into fights very often outside of work, because I can avoid trouble. As a bouncer, I do not have that luxury. I have to fight, and my hands are tied until it gets out of control. I am not allowed to just rush in and headbutt patrons into a fine paste. The rules apply to me, but not to them. I have to deal with multiple opponents, weapons, suckerpunchers and gangstas on a weekly basis. In the ring, my kickboxing skills win the day most of the time. In the club, it is my standup grappling skills that get pushed to the forefront. Grappling has saved my life on many occasions. If more than one patron is assaulting me, I am no longer bound by the limitations placed upon me, but a couple of well placed punches and a knee or two seem to get the job done just fine. I have been put on my back in streetfights before, and my grappling still worked just fine, although I was on the hard pavement that the reality self defense crowd likes to point at a lot. I scraped up my back and hurt my tailbone, but if I didn't know how to grapple, it would have been a hell of a lot worse. On the street, there is a definite potential for life threatening injury, much more so than in the ring. But it's still a lot harder to fight one guy who knows what he's doing than two to five drunk chumps.
"IMO, NHB-type sparring is a great tool for young, healthy athletes who have a solid base (usually advanced students) who want to take their training to a high level and can be about as close to real as you can safely train under controlled conditions" Yet young children and adults past 50 who are not top athletes still are still capable of doing this, and there are quite a few actually doing it. MMA is something everyone can do, it is not restricted to young, healthy athletes. As for artificial rules... Let's say we got a competitive runner, they are used to running in an artificial environment. There is a starting block, a track designed for running on. They don't train in street clothes, and possibly not even the same kind of shoes they would wear outside of that. In other words I could beat them in a street race right?
Competitive fighter trains in artifical environement and to fight in one Competitive runner does the same Do you think anyone on the street would have much chance in a foot race in a less structured environment against a competitive runner? Same for a fighter. You can practice your pothole avoidances, log jumps, pedestrian passing, and other "street" techniques all you like, but unless you actually run it is all pretty useless...
you fishhook a face and say bye bye to your finger nails. Yes, MMA - sport orientated fighting will have some disadvantages. In MMA its safe to go to the ground, in fact its a strategy but on the street in self defense its best keeping it up where you can easily move and/or get away. Learning what to do on the ground in self defense is not as important aslearning what to do on teh ground when you are competing MMA. Standing clinch and striking within clinch range, takedowns where you are left standing and he is on his **** are perfect, in my opinion, for street self defense. If you have very strong clinch grappling (Thai - Greco - Burmese) then most of the time you will be standing and they will be on the ground. Of course knowledge of ground is important as you are never 100% certain to be standing all teh time. Thai and Burmese clinch are pretty damn deep, striking withing clinch and biting in BOTH systems, Thai and Greco are very similar in that they both focus heavily on upper body throws and takedowns. Burmese clinch and Thai (non sproting) clinch are where you'll learn the strikes in clinch range. Rules in compeition dont matter its what you train outside of compeition. With experience you tend to know that when you have rounds and a ref trhen you cant exactly bite or gouge.... ...if you know how to do these techniques and have been properly trained then when there is no ref and you know there are no rounds then you simply do as you have trained these techniques. A sportive BJJ student once grappled a guy out side of a regulated fight, he took the guy down but had around 3 bites sunk into him, I am currently learning some ground work from BJJ and notice that if there were no rules (non sportive) a lot of times I would have lumps of flesh in my mouth without a doubt! Even in Thai clinch (which is half of what Muay Thai is) the ring clinch you roll your head back, do that in the street and yer getting a head butt... ok, so you then bring the head in close, all of a sudden you feel teath in your face and neck... what do you do? Control the jaw with your head and while his teath are under control you can then sink your own teath into him! Training is what counts. A sporting BJJ student rolling with a incompentant MINDLESS thug will probably walk away victor but with a few lumpos of flesh taken away. I once fishhooked a fella in teh face and he did bite my finger nail off. Fishhooking the face is ******** its better to cut the breathing off with your palm and push back on his head and dig your chin into his collar bone or throat. dirty techniques for a dirty game.
AND THEY STILL DON'T TRAIN THEM REALISTICALLY. Kwan jang, you can march back and forth across your dojo kiai'ing and gouging imaginary eyeballs, but you'll still have as much experience actually gouging eyes as the average joe- none. Go back and read my post. These things are simple. You don't have to train in MA to do them. Instead, your martial art training should be spent actually improving something. First of all, there is nothing (I repeat, NOTHING) about TMA's that makes them easier for people who aren't young. The common thing that makes people think the elderly can do TMA more than MMA is because TMA's commonly use light contact sparring, point sparring, etc. which is less physically demanding. Do you see many 70 year old guys doing full contact sparring in kyokushin or shidokan karate? No. Another common factor is that MMA has only been widely known for the last decade. The public has known about karate, TKD, etc. for a long time, so more people have been training in it longer. In time, you will see more people like Dan Severn who still compete and train even though they aren't exactly twenty years old. More excuses. What techniques would you use to "stun and run"? Strikes. What techniques would someone who does a combat sport use in a fight? Most likely strikes. The only difference is commonly the way they train. Also, if you want to worry about legal considerations, perhaps you should focus more on grappling and 'safe' strikes rather than eye gouges, throat strikes, etc. These are the rules for Pride FC, most other MMA events allow elbow strikes. Mixed martial artists train to be able to compete under the flexible and often changing rules in these competitions. Even though your next upcoming fight may not allow elbows, you still train them sometimes because in the future you may be allowed to use them. I'll reply more later, I have to go.
Simplest solution to biting - Remove their teeth I can't see biting a superior grappler as being a good idea. Cause know you'll have them really mad and they will be in a much better position to bite back. Not to mention the fact that most people would be incapable of actually taking a bite out of another human being.
