Ninjutsu episode airs tonight

5-6 Training sessions a week consistently for 4 years is impressive. I've been training consistently 2-3 training sessions a week for 14 years and just recently started training 4 sessions a week. (Which is a little too much honestly)

Weight training doesn't count.

 

You can make light of my mother anytime. That old lady has been overweight since I was in pre-school.

 

<<Insert talcom powder joke here>>??????????????????

 

I would completely agree. For the benefit of those who did not yet have a chance to see the episode, here are some direct quotes from the hosts:

Bill Duff, who "won" his challenge match against Bruce:

"This challenge is really intense. I find myself backing up a lot
because my opponents technique is much better than mine and they kept
telling me to move, move, move so I kept trying to move because I
could see him setting up angles and shots and I just wanted to get out
of there."

...quote from Bill after his challenge ended:

"Well I don't feel like a winner, I got hit about as hard as I could
get hit in the head and the thumb and everywhere else you can imagine.

This is really technical, really proficient and even though I had a
huge reach advantage he hung in there with me and smashed me across
the face, I mean that might have been the hardest hit I have taken on
human weapon. Swords are a lot different than fists..."

I guess live action role playing *can* be an effective training method considering that a much smaller guy walked away without a scratch and the big guy ended up nursing his wounds with ice; and isn't this what martial arts are all about? If not, the big guy would *always* win every fight...

Now a quote from Jason Chambers regarding the grappling section that everybody seems so concerned about:

"Surprised the hell out of me, though! What's he doing?!?! I'm
afraid he was going to pull out a weapon and stab me!"

...and this is something that all MMA's should consider before going
into grappling mode with ANYONE they encounter on 'da street.

My two cents,

-G. Glessner

 

I hope the comment about not presenting arguments logically with an open mind to debate wasn't directed toward me. Some people do come here [and to other forums, if you check] to start fights for the sake of fighting. I do not.

The topics I bring up for debate are reasons why I personally quit training in the art. I'm seriously not trying to **** people off when I post, though I know it will happen. I trained in this art for a long time and quitting was a hard decision, which is why when I bring up certain topics like my previous post, I'm looking for people to almost try and change my mind. To explain to me why what I said was invalid so I might stop and think, "Huh. I never saw it that way". Unfortunately no one has ever done that, I've never felt like my claims were unjust which is why I still train in MMA. I've found the answers to a lot of questions ninpo couldn't or wouldn't explain. I feel like the first month of my 5 day a week MMA schedule was so much more beneficial than all my years of ninjutsu combined. And this is coming from a die hard "ninja defender". We talked a lot of talk but when it came down to the nitty gritty, MMA was what walked the walk. I won't stay in a style because I love the art or have a lot of friends or invested a lot of time, I train to be able to protect myself and my family and I felt that MMA provided me with the skills necessary to do so, trained at the frighteningly realistic intensity that you need in order to fight, and that effectiveness is what made me love MMA so much more.

If I came off like I wasn't interested in listening, only preaching, then I apologize. You can lump me in with the pro-MMA-anti-Ninjutsu crowd, that's totally fine. I pretty much am, but unlike the other members of that crowd, I've trained in the art in all three organizations at one point and was on the other end of the spectrum for many years.

 

Thanks, it's worth knowing what the folks on the show who directly experienced what the Bujinkan guys were doing thought about it.

 

Well first off, it was point based and Bill won, so based on the challenge set up BY the Ninjutsu practicioners, Bill was the victor.

It's very easy to say, "Well he beat up Bill who was much larger than him" when it was based on a sword fight, a weapon Bill had never used before. The same can be said for Jason. Yes he got schooled with the sword, but Jason also had never used a sword. These uberdans BETTER have schooled them. And the first guy still lost by his own rules. So I think we can all agree that if a ninpo practicioner has a sword he can beat an MMA fighter on the street. If ANYONE had a sword, trained in it or not, they could beat an MMA fighter on the street.

But as I said earlier, when you take the entire Ninjutsu vs MMA debate into perspective as in which is more effective in a street fight, you CAN'T use swords on the street, and at least Jason's techniques and training intensity provide him with the necessary abilities to out perform others that don't train with the same intensity in mind. Jason proved his aliveness training was effective when the jugodan switched from sword to empty hand, taking Jason completely by surprise, and yet he was still able to throw the ninja and were this a fight to tap, he could have choked him out. But instead, he stuck to the match rules, grabbed the sword, and stabbed him.

I'm not saying this challenge proved Ninjutsu was inferior to MMA by any means, but in the whole scheme of combat, who honestly is more prepared? Yes I know people can carry guns, knives, etc but I've never seen realistic knife or gun training in the X-kan curriculum. I've learned some from great teachers in the X-Kan, but to be fair, it wasn't part of the curriculum.

 

Who is the we you are talking about? You have been in " All three organizations" jumping about like a Kangaroo.
I have no idea who you are, or who your teacher is, or your own personal experience with the art. Don't care either really. But, if you are going to use your own experiences as justification for criticisms of an entire art you might want to provide an actual example and argument backing up your claims.

Otherwise you can commit huge fallacies with your generalizations.

Glad you found something you enjoy.

But, here is the problem people often come in here half cocked and drunk some sort of psychological ego trip, and make baseless comments and broad generalizations. Based on a few people that have web videos. And, basically band-wagoning nonsense one person makes a comment and everyone takes there digs, kind of like a prison scene where everyone shanks the poor ******* in the shower (might be expected from a Romo).

The point is it isn't productive or even funny, it is merely intended to **** people off just to **** people off. If it is funny I can understand, if it is merely your art sucks because I do ROMO-jutsu then seriously how is that productive. It is meant to incite problems isn't it.

 

Not in this particular case: Doug escaped once he was on the ground, kicking on the way out.

There was no stab. He tried to cut, and Doug was continually moving away from the cut -- rendering it ineffective even if it touched him, which I'm not at all sure it did -- on his way out.

We do both in my dojo. And it's pure Bujinkan, in the same way that Hatsumi sensei shows how Bujinkan principles and movement work with modern weapons. That's not just my view: A Japanese shihan was my student in a firearm-related seminar a couple of years ago and afterward said so to my own students.

 

I once saw this american bloke in JPN, who had quite amazing free form abilities against a live blade(Soke made a point about him). Anyway, The Bujinkan is not short of experts in this area of study..curriculum or not.

paul

 

Actually he almost escaped, partly because Jason was trying to get a hold of the sword.
That doesnt mean he couldnt have escaped.....
If you watch the video carefully it looks like Doug was trying to get to the sword, but Jason stopped him, and went for it himself.

I'm sorry Dale, but Doug took a nice solid thrust to the face/neck. Watch it again, its pretty clear. I think it was much more then just an "ineffective touch".

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4w3FzJT8ec"]Human Weapon Ninjutsu - YouTube[/ame]


In all honesty I thought the same thing though...until I watched it a dozen more times.


I think its important that we dont try to make excuses for any loss.
Or try to re-write history.

On both sides.

As innocent as it may seem, it is poor losing.

 

ok I've been skimming, and I just realized several people claiming that Doug...
a) Escaped on the ground and
b) may have not even been cut


Come now...He took a solid sword stab right down the center from under back mount. And he did have a good idea on escaping out the back door, especially since Jason was scrambling for the sword, but he got caught.

Do we really think this argument would be going over well had the situations been reversed, and Jiu-Jitsu players were trying to claim that had it been a real sword, that the damage would have likely been superficial???

 

What are we still discussing. The dude caught a blade in the side of the neck from under backmount. And what?
Not to mention that even if he did get up, he is on the ground facing a dude with a sword while he himself is unarmed. Ninja or not, he's hosed.

 

imo, his back was taken and he only got to scramble around a bit because jason was going for the sword.

Gotta say that bujinkan training makes you a good 'demonstrator' , and theres many who are very skilled at this.
The training doesn't neccessarily make you a good practictioner in a high stress scenario.
I don't think the Japanese shihan are really that bothered about training good fighters - I think the all-round benefits (flexibility, vitality and general health and happiness) of taijutsu seem to be their focus. (again all just my humble opinion).
My judo friend saw it - and said 'hey it wasn't that bad, but those young guys with 13th and 15th dan's - that made the whole thing look silly'

over and out.

 

What is the point of video tape if people see different things on it anyway?
Jesus this is all pointless!

Real swords, staffs, and shuriken next time, no debate then. "Oh wait, Duff was holding his own up to the point he lost his head" There can be only one!

Peoples perceptions are seriously messed up. Has anyone watched anything without an agenda regarding the martial arts?

 

Nice now people are posting criticisms from their friends and family on this thread. Please, maybe we can keep with just one opinion at a time. Thanks.

 

OK, since no one wants me here, I'll leave.

 

ROFL, yeah right! You'll leave.

Can you just offer some arguments without the huge amount of extras, jabs and pokes, and pimp - o - licious wording?

 

No, but I can offer huge amount of extras, jabs and pokes, and pimp - o - licious wording.

Check it:

The art of the ninja has not been slept on
It’s clear, a ninja makes a poor +Human Weapon+

You see long ago, back at the geneses
There were some ninja on the ninja premises
On a family friendly forum you can’t cuss on the ninja
So this cat rolled up and started to buss on the ninja
A clip from the .44 was dumped on the ninja
Some rounds form the 12 gauge were pumped on the ninja
Hot metal through the bones left rust on the ninja
The whole world around turned to dust on the ninja
A shell to the ass tore the rump off a ninja
A blade came out and sliced a clump off a ninja
There were ninja on wall, ninja on the floor
Blood everywhere and this cat bussed some more

So if you’re a lucky ninja, learn your lesson
Count your blessings and don’t test, son
Stay ninja calm and keep it ninja groovy
Before I put your heart under a blade, like the ninja movie

 

Awesome scarlet mist