Kotegaishi

How much damage would be done if the Uke did not flip or roll during a kotegaishi?

 

Last time my uke and I and got our timing wrong it broke both of his forearm bones so quite a bit!

 

Done correctly kote gaeshe SHOULD "turn the wrist that turns the elbow that unbalances the hip" causing him to fall. It is when emphasis is placed on twisting the wrist rather than the unbalancing that injury can occur. Or a mistake in timing as the previous poster has pointed out.

Ukemi best to learn a basic backwards roll rather than a flip over the wrist initially.Below you can see the unbalancing rather than simply twisting the wrist.
Uke has "turned into the lock" so he can flip over it.Rolling backwards would have been more efficient.


regards koyo

 

under what circumstances could flipping out of kotegaeshi be preferable or would you consider always a backwards breakfall?

i'm just starting out on flipping y'see. and i keep bruising the edge of my straightened legs foot

 

..and who was responsible for that unnecessary injury ?

 

Depending on the grip, a broken wrist articulation, broken metacarpals, torn tendons, ligaments & muscles in the hand, wrist and forearm.

BTW, it is written in Hepburn system as Kote Gaeshi (こてがえし・小手返 ), never "gaishi".

 

I prefare the backward ukemi. Most injuries come from a "bad" kote gaeshi. The wrist should be turned "where it lies" (low) It is when large circles are made during the execution that mistakes are made.

regards koyo

Where it lies then ukemi (either) is possible.Note the judo style slapping of the mat.

 

you can tuck the closes leg and roll with out a brake fall.

 

Excellent advice. I second that

regards koyo

 

Can you explain this in a little more detail please?

 

Koyo has a photo for every occasion! Brilliant

 

If the breakfall comes naturally as a way to protect myself then it happens, on the other hand, I really don't like breakfalls. I feel that you must always protect yourself and when it comes to ukemi for Kotegaeshi, the instinctive response is to protect the wrist from breaking and retain balance. Only after that fails should something else come naturally.

My first response to Kotegaeshi is to bring my body to my hand, brace my wrist and forearm with my other hand, move close into a weakness in tori's balance, hit them with my shoulder and knock them off balance. When this fails, then it becomes natural to protect yourself, particularly the spine and head, from the fall and what will be landed on, whether that be concrete or a knee.

On a related note, if the Kotegaeshi is not applied with a good grip, I can often counter quickly by presenting tori with nikyo momentarily as I align and strike them. This can lead to a reverse Kotegaeshi, uke becomes tori.

 

In my understanding, if kotegaeshi is applied correctly with kuzushi being the intent uke should not need to flip over.

I'm of the opinion that many aikidoka become 'pre-programmed' to perform overhead ukemi as the basis of being one with your partner, rather than learning to 'feel' the development, direction and intention of the waza and accept it accordingly. That makes for a far better training partner, than someone who wantonly overheads.

 

I am with you 100% here koryu.The breakfall is dictated by the one applying the technique. Since kote gaeshi should be executed "where the wrist lies" Imagine if he had a knife, the "large circle" kote gaeshi you often see could have you cutting your own thoat. The over the top ukemi is caused if he who is executing it is an advanced aikidoka who has managed to transferr the imbalancing to the hip of uke this can cause him to flip.

As you say it is most important to feel the principles being applied and to fall naturally (not often over the top) Never attempt a technique until uke is unbalanced properly. NEVER give your balance, it MUST be taken.


regards koyo

Ukemi is a defence against techniques so "flipping" is of no value. Below David has "turned" the flip into a forward to the side roll which shall take him back to his feet.The bad news.. in ara waza severe techniques THERE ARE NO BREAKFALLS

 

I think that, until you get to the highest level, Uke has to agree to be compliant and allow tori to perform the technique.
As a shodan Karate and a beginner Aikido; in a real-world scenario I would be reluctant to leave my arm there to be twisted/wrenched/thrown.
But in class, where Uke's job is to allow tori to learn their move, you do.
And there is ann associated risk with this and I've been injured by doing so.

So I guess the fundamental question is whether you allow yourself to be grabbed in the first place.

This isn't a dig at Aikido, BTW, as I do it because I think it has a value, and wouldn't citicise it for the world.
It's just that I think there is a HUGE step to make to be able to do it effectively, and I think there are only a handful of people who can.
I'm reading a couple of books (Dynamic Sphere, and sensei Peter Brady's book), and they assert that the aim of Aikido is to overcome your opponent without them realising that you've done it.
Clearly breaking their arm doesn't quite match with that aspiration...

(I love Aikido!)

 

Hi Prowla

As a karateka you will know that the power for the punch comes at the instant of kime.
Musubi in aikido means the instant of contact. The musubi MUST come just before the attacker kimes. Therefore his arm need not stay out there.

Below you can see the instant of musubi. Note also that Chris is defending his face from the inevitable strike that will come if I do not succeed in unbalancing him at musubi.
Teaching a beginner we ask that the attack be slow enough that he can study the timing we NEVER ask that the arm be "left out there".

regards koyo

 

The subject of "leaving one's arm there" is another example of pre-programmed response to the ideological thinking behind the discipline rather than, as Koyo has said many times, ideological and philosophical thinking should develop from solid training with a martial intent.

In my last class the emphasis was to return every attack back to ai-hanmi thus, no matter what uke did, the waza was always kihon. As we become more adept at musubi - connection with whom ever we train with, their means of attack can become more aggressive and less compliant in nature thus, we should always expect, for instance not just one punch to the head, but several, we must therefore deal with the person, not an appendage thrown our way.

Many people get hung up on physical waza however, and I think Koyo may agree with me, principles are by far better lessons to learn by.

 

Again I am in total agreement

regards koyo

 

Then you and I are wearing the same tee shirt - again

 

you tuck your inside foot, same side as the kotegashi, by rolling your foot over on to the top of the foot bending the knee rolling up your dairyair. most technics can be rolled out of. i could show you better than tell you sorry.
good luck training