jow gar sparring forms

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by tkd_rules, Feb 20, 2007.

  1. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    We actually do, sometimes use what amount to two man forms in my BJJ class.
    For example: Person A is in Person B's guard; B goes go for a kimura, and A drives into him. B changes to a guillotine, so A sits up to avoid it. B then executes a bump sweep, and they start over.
    It's not the main form of training we do, but it's there.
     
  2. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Um ok . . . so you are saying that performing choreographed fight sequences aren't real effective training? Duh.

    There is a difference between training and going through the motions. If you are doing set 2 man drills (like where the whole drill is set), you are working on something very specific, and you know what your partner is doing, so you have to give proper intent with every movement. That is how you extract the goodie from set 2 man drills (such as 2 man sets). I hate to say it, but I can't lay it out any simpler, and if you can't get it from what i've said already, I can't explain it to you.
     
  3. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    That sounds more like a drill, or a lockflow. Yes? I go through the same thing (and then again with resistance after the drill is ingrained).
    That’s not what they mean in example. But somehow I knew this might’ve come up, lol.
     
  4. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Okay, let’s get one basic thing out in the open.

    What is described in CMAs regularly and demonstrated in the videos are NOT two man “drills”. A drill (in this sense) is designed to hone and refine a specific skill used for fighting. A dodging drill, a boxing drill, even a kicking drill of some sort. But eventually, much sooner than later they’re applied in an Alive, resistant manner toward sparring.

    I’m using the literal term “two-man forms” because they ARE forms, not drills. I’m really not going to call what we’ve seen here something that it’s not just for the sake of sounding more effective or comparable. Quite literally, you’re lying to yourself if you call it or deem it OTHER than two-man forms…as these in no way are “drills”.

    Now what you’re trying to convince me here is that somehow a two-man form will be able to hone my skills in fighting. Even though I’m not fighting at all. You’ve said it yourself, you already KNOW what your partner is going to do systematically within this set. Move for move, it’s the same every time. So how in the world does this advance your skills in fighting, which does NOT have a predetermined outcome whatsoever? I can move rougher or imagine that this is real all that I want. But that doesn’t make it any more realistic in reality at all.

    It’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying. I understand PERFECTLY what you’re saying. The problem is that what you’re doing is trying to justify LARPer BS as a means of learning how to fight somehow.

    Again I ask: how is this teaching me how to fight when I’m not fighting in any manner other than an "extended" choreographed fashion?

    Choreography: the arrangement and movement of performers onstage; though the term cutomarily applies to dancers, it is also used to denote the orchestrated movement of actors, especially in stage combat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  5. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Like I said, when you are training 2 man set drills, you are working on a very specific thing. You are isolating a stimulus and applying a reaction to it. If you vary the stimulus, the whole dynamic changes, and you should stop what you are doing and modify your response so that it is appropriate for the stimulus. That means, do a different drill. Using set 2 man drills, you can cover all the different stimuli that can be applied to you in a certain known state, and train an appropriate response to each stimulus. Then, when it comes to sparring or fighting, you start from your known state, and use the responses you have trained.

    You don't know what I'm trying to justify, or anything about me or my practice. If you can't address issues in a mature and adult like manner, I'm not interested in discussing anything with you.

    I remain amazed that you practiced CMA for what? 10 years? And no one took the time to teach you how to use set 2 man drills? What were you doing the whole time Shen?
     
  6. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    All of judo's katas are two man sets. Many boxing and kickboxing schools teach counter punching drills which are a series of predetermined punch counter punch moves done to teach the proper reaction to a specific attack. These are usually done before getting to the free style work you linked to. San shou we've been over before. The majority of guys fighting in san shou bouts are kung fu guys who train in the traditional manner of their style. The minority who train san shou specific vary depending on who the teacher is. Some use a lot of traditional methods others use more modern methods but even the modern style schools use preset drills before getting to free style pad work or sparring. Likewise kung fu simply uses 2 man sets before getting to sparring.
     
  7. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Just to make this 100% clear, please show me an example of what YOU mean by two-man set or two-man drill in CMAs. While I’m sure that I understand what you’re describing, can you provide a video example of what you mean? I’m more than sure that plenty of footage exists out there to support this.



    Actually sparring and learning how to fight against various opponents and body types. Y'know...the actual point of Martial Arts.
     
  8. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu


    See, now you guys are SWITCHING here.
    Are you talking about literal two man drills (like you’re describing and I was describing), or are you talking about two man FORMS (for which I’ve given footage support). There IS a difference, mostly given by the descriptions and video provided here.

    This hop scotching back n’ forth is confusing me.
    And giving me a headache.
     
  9. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    I don't really see a difference. Maybe in length but not in practicality. A boxing counterpunch drill can have as many as 16 (maybe more) techniques exchanged back in forth in a predetermined routine with the same movement and footwork. I have also seen several of them done back to back which to me adds up to a 2 man set. Judo kata's are probably the stiffest and least practical of all two man forms that I have ever seen but the kodokan requires them for testing at certain belts so they must consider them to have some value and that's one of the proven forms you mentioned.
     
  10. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Okay, but are these "sets" that you're speaking of as extensive as the forms shown within the video?
     
  11. moisiss

    moisiss Valued Member

    I think you are over estimating the difference between what you call "drills" and "forms" or "sets". Both are choreographed to some extent.... even the boxing "drill" you posted shows the trainer throwing the same combo a few different times... so the boxer knows basically what is coming and knows where to punch and duck and what not (there might be minor variations). He still has to adjust to timing and range... like you would in a two-man "set". So how is that really different from a "form" or "set"?

    Also, at the very least, doing a two-man "set" would help condition the arms/legs of both people by allowing them to deliver and take blocks (you know, just hitting your arm against something long enough will toughen it up) in addition to helping people develop proper focus.

    I do agree, however, that unless you are serious about getting real results it seems very easy for someone to just "walk through" a two man "set".... at which point it becomes pretty much worthless. But the same could be said about a "drill".

    Edit: Someone beat me to the first point... but I still believe it to be true.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  12. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Honestly, it's not about what they are doing. It's about whether they are doing it properly, which is not something that I have the eyes for when it comes to other styles, and unfortunately, there aren't many SPM videos out there that show the two man training.

    The video you showed earlier could be utilizing proper intent and technique, but I don't know because I don't know the style, and I can't be there to feel it. That video COULD be a good example of proper two man training, or not.

    Without set 2 man drills? I haven't come across a CMA yet that doesn't have them. Did your style use them?
     
  13. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    You can do two man forms with poor technique and intent, essentially playing pattycake/manhugging. You can take some boxing and wrestling drills and do them with poor technique and intent, essentially playing pattycake/manhugging. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what you are doing, it only matters if you are doing it well.

    There is good training, and there is ****e training, and it's up to you to decide what type of training you are going to engage in. Part of martial arts, ANY martial art is that you have to work to make it effective. If you don't try to make it effective, it won't be. Plain and simple.
     
  14. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Guys...video examples to clarify....please.
     
  15. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    Which sets, The boxing or the judo?

    The boxing drills start out short but grow in length as you progress. The longest ones are much shorter than most kung fu 2man forms but when they start doing several of them back to back they can be just as long. Also the kung fu sets are taught in segments. You learn a segment, work on it for a while then learn another segment. Later you put all the segments together to make up the form. To me they seem the same.

    Judo katas are really rigid and formal. Some of them have many techniques but they don't flow like either the kung fu or the boxing sets.
     
  16. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    A video example is largely pointless. A good 2 man drill/form is going to look very similar to a well performed choreographed session. People can fake it, blah blah blah. I'm not going to spend an hour going through two man drills to find one that looks good, just so I can prove something to someone who has no impact on my life.

    If you want to go find effective set two man training, do what I did:

    Go look for it!
     
  17. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    I'd really like to see you answer to this question.
     
  18. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    So would you say that there are “two man forms” in Boxing for example? And that these forms are negligible in applicable difference?
     
  19. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu


    Why is it pointless? Is it going to really stress you that much to find an example to support your point comparatively?
     
  20. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    No, we didn’t and for a very simple reason.

    We learned a specific technique, we drilled it until it became reflexive. Then we were taught how to apply it. From there, we began to spar with the tools that we had (depending on your level dictates the intensity). All of this, even in my old Kwoon, occurred within a matter of months, not years. At best, our Sifu corrected the form of our punch for alignment. But learning to “play fight” an entire scenario wasn’t ever used. Maybe little defensive/offensive drills here n’ there, but not an entire form.

    That’s why I say that there is a large difference between a drill (or even a two man drill) and a two man FORM. A form [again] is an entirely choreographed scenario that DOES NOT change. At most, you can change the intensity to make it more convincing to an audience, but it is not a drill. A form isn’t randomized the way a drill CAN be. I believe that we all understand what a form is, don’t we? I’ve never seen a kickboxing or boxing form and I’ve definitely never have seen a wrestling form of any sort (other than singular Shuai Chiao ones). So really, the terms are not relative under the context that we’re speaking.
     

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