Same old tired arguments. Same old tired response. You wanna start quoting the book, try it after you've actually read it and understood it. But i guess its only fair. the kind of people who use Islam as a shield for their doings are also the kind of people least bothered to actually get off their bums and UNDERSTAND what they believe. @Jorovic: I didn't know you could get locked up in prison for 5 years for not believing on the holocaust. wow. Pakistani government is a stupid corrupt hypocritical piece of you know what anyways. =) i'll gladly agree with you on that any day =D
I can't read Arabic , so I have only read an English version, the Pictorial one. Though I guess since it can only be read "officialy" in Arabic I have not read it. ^_^ I agree people can quote away, different peices under different contexts. I am not saying Islam is a bad religion or a good religion.There are no absolutes here. This "Islam is a religion of peace" Who actually started this? genuinly.. were did it come from. Islam doesn't claim to be a religion of peace, it teaches submission to God, and aims to teach life lessons, part of this is violence. As much as many other things. I just found the post that I replied to saying Islam didn't teach violence was frivolous. Raz
Religion's just the a thing for people to hide behind. Just how politicians hide behind their politics. In my country, people hide behind their heritage. You can take them all away, new ones will simply pop up. The people are the problem, not simply religion. I can agree with that. Islam teaches ALL aspects of life. Violence is one of them. Peace is simply the biggest one. where islam does allow violence it puts up a crazy amount of IFs and UNLESSes that it gets hard to justify violence. An understanding of the Quran and Hadith are essential. Its like this, you can't qualify to be a doctor if you didn't study MBBS You can't claim to be a muslim if you didn't study Islam.
You'd be better off being a member of any religion in the USA than you would be in Egypt and Sudan. The USA is is far more politically and socially stable than they are right now. Sorry, but the world isn't divided into two neat parts called 'Over Here' and 'Over There'. It is made up of hundreds of different countries, and they are all a bit different. Lumping them into two big piles as though they were two homogenous masses is simply misleading.
Hello Raz, This is what happens when you start pulling out quotes from the Qur'an WITHOUT CONTEXT. This is exactly what got those people rallied up in the first place. Why do you think I placed quotation marks on the word religious? Firstly, you misquoted the Qur'an. Verse [4:103] is as follows: Secondly, verse [3:157]: Where does it say fighting? Do you read Arabic by any chance? If you read the original Arabic text you would understand that it means if you pass away from this world as a Muslim (I could get into what makes someone a true Muslim but that's not your question), then they would go to heaven. Don't nitpick whatever suits your views. Translations are often wrong and changed on purpose to insight hatred. Be careful where you get your sources from. Thirdly, verse [2:216]: This verse came down when Muslims were severally oppressed and persecuted, and it still remains true even today. If you were oppressed, wouldn't you raise up to defend yourself? Here are a few commentaries by some of the translators of the Qur'an: - (Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, Text, Translation and Commentary ) - (Daryabadi, The Glorious Qur’an, emphasis added) This is when the verse was revealed: (Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, Text, Translation and Commentary ) Now, about apostasy. If you were a Muslim, but decided Islam wasn't the right religion and converted to something else, then that's it. I would congratulate you on being courageous and honest to yourself and doing what you believe is right. If you were a Muslim, and knew Islam to be the right religion, but abandoned these ideals for money, power, etc. I would feel bad for you, but I and no one else, has the right to harm you, harass you, or do anything against you. Don't just go on Islamaphobic websites and take in what they're saying. It's often misconstrued and blatantly wrong. It's not a dig at you.
I must apologise if I came across as Islamaphobic it was not my intention I just found your post far to one sided, as im at work not at home I don't have my books to quote from. So I succombed to lowly :google: One point I would raise with you though, is the crime for apostosy. I am not going to quote the line because I don;t have it to hand, and I won't go down the google road again. But im 99.99% sure it is said that you are charged with killing Muslims who desert the faith. Or do I have this part really wrong? Raz
I'd like to report an account of Hazrat Ali. one of the closest friends and helpers of the Holy prophet. During battle, he managed to knock down an opponent and was about to kill him. The man spit on him, so Hazrat Ali let him get up. when asked why, he said that he was killing him for the sake of Islam and Allah, when he was spit on, his anger entered the mix, thus defiling his intentions. so he had to leave him until his anger was subdued. if anyone is interested in the exact account i can post that here. but this is the gist of it. Today i can honestly say that no muslim can nor ever will be able to reach a level of faith as that, judging how muslims are today. But that is the idol we need to live up to.
Okay, come on Aiki. Do you really think I meant that? Yes, you have it really wrong. I didn't mean to sound harsh in my earlier post. It's just that it gets on my nerves when people start nitpicking quotes without context.
I think it has a lot more to do with the social,political and economic problems they have than religion. It has less to do with them being muslim and a lot more to do with having a crappy life in a crappy country. People cling to religion during times of crisis etc.
I am in one sense , if you believe strongly in freedom of speech ( as I do) then there is no excuse for what the Islamics do, but also there is no excuse for freedom of speech being banned in the UK nor for people in Europe not being able to disagree with the holocaust("......I think there is a historian serving a 5 year sentence in Germany for just such as evil deed)....you can have freedom of speech but when you ban things that some people call "hate speech", then you no longer have free speech, if it's qualified then it's not free....I'm sure any Islamic would regard insults against their religion as "hate speech
That is the first i've EVER heard of that. People who desert faith publically probably never had much faith privately in the first place. at least they are being honest. By definition they are better than Hypocrites, who are the lowest of beings in islam. and we are not allowed to kill them just because they are hypocrites either. so killing deserter of faith is pretty much out of the question. Now there are the rules that people themselves have made up. For example, in some parts om my country, widows are burnt at stake. Claiming its islam. It's not. Its hinduism. and even they have outlawed it.
I can understand this , fair one and I'm sorry for the quoting. On Apostasy,it seems it is not written in the Quran but it is mentioned in the Hadith's, so I guess it depends on wether you subscribe to them? (Im still at work so some google was used) Raz
I think you mean David Irving as the Historian and a lot of his research is interesting. He does not (now) deny the holocaust but finds a lot of the events fabricated and or exegarated but he does say that 4 million Jews were killed as a result of WW2. Raz
I think Irving was sentenced to 3 and did 1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4733820.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Life_after_libel_suit
I'm afraid you've completely lost me there. What is that the 'Islamics' do? And who are the 'Islamics' anyway? I assume you mean a particular group of Muslims, but I'm not clear exactly who you have in mind. Again, you are talking about two seperate issues and lumping them together as though they were one. Freedom of speech isn't banned in the UK. 'Hate speech' is. And there are also laws against slander, libel and defamation of character. If you want complete freedom to say whatever you like then this country probably isn't for you, because we have had laws against certain types of speech since the year dot. Holocaust denial is an offence in some countries, such as Germany and Austria (I wonder why!) But it isn't an offence in the UK.
@warriorofanart, One of my personal problems with Islam,and since your now our resident scholar ^_^ you can help clear up my misunderstanding, is that Islam claims to be the true and final religion, but its practioner's react so violently when its legitamacy is questioned. E/g When a christain scholar in Egypt a few years ago was recorded as saying some of the Quran read as though it was plagarased, he was pretty much told to go on TV and apologise as not to cause offence. Yet if I was to say the same thing about Jain's or Quakers, even Christians I know nearly 100% the same thing is not going to happen. Thoughts? Raz
