Quality and other issues arising from the "kuk Sool List" thread

As suggested BY Unk, here's new thread to try and intercept the growing quality discussion on "The List" thread - which is at http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100070&page=6

 

First, thanks for starting this thread, as the discussion (although interesting/captivating) doesn't really belong on Xanth's "List" thread. :bow1: {edit: here is a better link to where one ought to start reading in the other thread WRT the off-topic conversation about *quality* as it's perceived in kuk-sool schools (specifically KSW schools) as the link provided by the OP seems to be directing me to page 6 (post #76) and the previous page (post #61) is a better place to plunge in IMO: CLICK HERE }

Concerning your idea about collaboration with a health-gym, it's a worthwhile thing to try and do. It may surprise you to learn that I have done such things in the past, but never to the extent that all my students received a discount on their gym membership (remember that some of those establishments are *corporate-owned* and the manager just doesn't have the leeway to enter into such a business deal).

But since a MA instructor should be having his students practice kicks and such (whether in the air or on a heavy bag or focus mitt), and provided that one prevents the pace from slowing down too much, then an aerobic benefit can be achieved. It's a good idea to allow a few tries done slow in order to work precision with the skill before commencing the REAL workout, at a sightly less than frenetic pace. If time permits, end the drill by letting them attempt precision done slowly once again, which is actually fairly difficult once they're all worn out from the rigorous routine just endured. :evil:

My point is that *fatties* are usually that way simply because they don't get enough exercise. If they start MA training and stick with it, they should begin to see improvements in their physical condition, even if it does take a few months before the results are realized.

 

I didn't check back to the previous thread so I may be missing the gist of the exchange here.

In my own case I have found that MA schools spend WAY too much time on conditioning, but then, I am speaking from the standpoint of Hapkido. In the art that I study we constantly emphasize the fact that even physically impaired people ought be able to protect themselves. What I have found, in truth, is a heavy emphasis on making people stronger such that the people with even natural ability find themselves in a hierarchy dominated by the bigger and stronger.

Quite recently----about the last 5 years or so--- I have been doing ever deeper research into Chinese Boxing, especially where it relates to Korean KWON BEOP. What I have been finding out is rather amazing.

First off, I can share that what we know as CHEN and YANG Tai Chi Chuan bears little resemblance to the original practices of the arts back 100 years ago. BION these practices used to include a variety of dynamic jumps, flips and splits that were removed when it became plain that the public was simply not up to such gymnastics.

Secondly I should mention that while there are a variety of conditioning and training methods, the weight is put on the student to do these things and the teacher focuses only on teaching his specialty. If the student cannot keep-up the responsibility is on the student not the teacher.

Lastly, I believe that individuals who are truly invested in a chosen activity will automatically do what is necessary to improve. I don't believe a person who wants to acheive some level of competence inan activty needs to be coddled to work on his conditioning, strength training, range-of-motion or execution. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Thanks, Bruce.

There were OTHER issues being discussed on the other thread, this aspect of *conditioning* in class as opposed to outside of class, being the one that made it to this new thread. The real (sub)topic being bandied about, was concerning QUALITY and the age-old problem of McDojoism had crept into the conversation, specifically the promotion of people who are basically too inept to actually pass the requirements for said promotion. Then *compassion* for the poor dearies was introduced... blah, blah, blah. You get the picture, I'm sure. :bow1:

Hell, it even moved me to change my sig-line...

 

deleted cos Unk said it first

 

Well I know all too well the lack of compassion a self proclaimed A hole would have towards his students. And for what its worth most of the rhetoric is coming from those who don't have schools and don't really have a dog in the fight. All that's OK, however the point I was trying to make is that as an instructor/school owner there are responsibilities IMO to help all people regardless of athletic ability and regardless of the reasons for taking up MA in the first place.

JD said previously that if standards slip that the students may have a false sense of security and get hurt by defending themselves in an altercation, and that somehow the school owner would be liable. Well I teach that one should avoid physical violence altogether if at all possible. Not because I don't think they can defend themselves but because of the legal ramifications if they hurt someone. I would doubt that the likes of Brock Lesner (sp) would say to a top fighter "Don't worry you are indestructible anyone tries to mess with you beat them senseless. Don't worry about guns or knives you can handle it, oh yea there's nobody that can beat you because I trained you." It's not my job to create "life takers and heart breakers" that's the job of the Marines.

I'm providing a positive environment in the lives of people who would otherwise continue to be bombarded with situations that continue to stress them on a daily basis.

I also never said that a student shouldn't know the material or be able to perform it at a predetermined level. Who's to say other than the particular student's instructor what the requirements are for the individual. Minimum standards are set by WKSA and it is up to the individual school owner to decide to raise the bar if so inclined. Someone (tulsa) saw that a student was promoted that in his opinion wasn't qualified oh well that's his opinion. IMO it's none of his or my business that's between the student his instructor and HQ. In my school my students know beforehand what is expected of them and we together prepare a plan or goals based on the required material and their particular situation.

I also believe it is not because the almighty dollar is to blame for low standards I believe it is instructor incompetency. And to shift the blame to an organization or the student is a cop out on the part of the school owner.

 

A few bad apples spoil the bunch-saying

I.think people tend .to focus a lot on negative occurrences and over generalize because of it, while I.three that standards are good, I also think that you shouldnt give up.on people who.are really trying, but also although some take martial arts for health reasons or a hobby isn't it implied that you are studying how to use violence(even if only for defense of self) and as this is the purpose of the activity shouldn't one be prepared and capable for that? The flip side of that same coin-being self control, discipline, and ethics giving the student the tools to decide when it is appropriate to exercise said skills, although societal training should have already instilled those attributes still you have mugging and kidnappings, rape, murder, home invasion, etc. So although I agree with many different aspects of what each are saying isn't the answer somewhere in the middle instead of black and white? And although I don't own a school obewan, i personally have had only quality instructions from.excellent instructors since training at ksw and belonging to the wksa.

 

Yes.....unfortunately that is one slippery slope I have tried to negotiate on one-too-many threads and it always comes back to the same place: folks simply cannot have it both ways.

IMVHO:

If people believe that they are safe-guarding a tradition, a cultural artifact an iconic practice then that tradition, artifact or practice is going to have standards---from beginning to end.

If people believe they are providing a KMA-flavored activity for its novelty or entertainment value the standards can be as tight or as loose as anyone cares to make them.

Either situation is acceptable.

What you can't do is say that you are doing one thing and then do something else because its commercially expedient. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I can have my "cake and eat it too" if you can't that's your problem.

 

Well.....I can report that you would not be the first person to believe that. I don't know your situation so I could be wrong. IMHO you may well be fooling yourself. If I had to hazzard a guess, my guess is that you have a commercial school with a wide range of students extending from the hobbyist and thespian to the more serious practitioner. Personally I would doubt verry seriously that you are successfully being all things to all people. Somewhere along the line somebody is getting shorted. They may not be saying anything, but that doesn't mean its not happening. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Go Tell It To The Marines!

"oo-rah"
- Lewis Burwell "Chesty" Puller

​

 

I can't believe you posted that jingoistic and macho b*llsh*t phrase again Unk!

 

What? As if the british SAS doesn't adhere to similar rhetoric?



Also, I found this on the *original* thread and wanted to demonstrate how EASY it is to move comments (to where they ought to be placed).

I agree with the notion that the fees paid for MA classes can fall into a range, depending on what is offered. While $45/month may have been what you paid back in the 1970's, I knew of many MA studios at that time who often charged as little as $25 to $30 per month. Also, don't forget to factor into the equation, that back then classes were offered 5 or 6 days a week and ALL classes were available for the paid tuition fees. Nowadays, there is often a *restriction* to only attend 2 or 3 classes a week, so paying somewhere between $100 and $150 still coincides with a "reasonable" rate, according to your inflation adjustments.

Of course, what one decides to pay for ANY type of instruction has always been in my book, a subjective thing, especially when it comes to determining such attributes as "exorbitant", "fair", etc. For example, an education procured from an accredited university should be regarded as equal to any other accredited university based on the fact that both are "accredited" right? But because of the "good ol' boy" network operating in the business sector, ivy-league schools can expect double & triple what most other universities charge since their alumni typically pull down much higher salaries once graduated and out in the workplace. Ergo, a false perception that WHAT is taught in such institutions is somehow better. But knowledge is knowledge, and the only perk of an ivy-league education is the bigger paycheck for their graduates (as well as better opportunities typically denied to non-ivyleaguers - again due to the GOB network previously mentioned).

Since there isn't an ivy-league equivalent in the MA industry, all one can do is follow the sage advice: caveat emptor.

 

God bless the united states marines!

 

Example?

 

You're right... I forgot that you brits are too "cool, calm & collected" to exhibit any emotional fervor, even when it comes to the use of a "battle cry."

From Wikipedia:

FWIW, I heard the "hoo-ah" (HUA) used by the U.S. Army is actually an acronym (but Wikipedia claims it to be a backronym).

H = Heard
U = Understood
A = Acknowledged



And for everyone's enjoyment:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVS28A7M6kc"]OORAH![/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMB-tgwz-aA"]usmc oorah!!!![/ame]

 

Virtually nothing correct in that post....but that is to be expected. Did you attend an Ivy League school? So how would you know? Prominent sociologist Dr Espenshade and statistician Dr Chung differ with your wholeheartedly ignorant supposition.

You can get an Ivy equivalent education by attending a Ivy equivalent school like a Stanford or MIT. But to think that there is no difference between an accredited community college and Yale is ludicrous. The Ivy League schools have a 97% graduation rate. <1% drop out and 2% fail out and transfer to state schools...at which point they often finish their degrees. If you're saying a good State school can compete with the bottom of the barrel Ivy student...that I can agree with. Or a creme of the crop Honors Program State College student can compete with a Ivy Student...sure. But the average student...nope.

Example: Campbell is the text of choice for 1st years in biology. Yale covers all 56 chapters in their freshman course. A great school like Stanford covers 55. The best schools in Texas and Georgia: Rice and Emory cover 48. Great State schools like Berkeley and Michigan cover 45. Your typical State school like SUNY Buffalo covers 38. A great community college like Pasadena City College covers less than 30. Most community colleges will cover completely only 20 and bits and pieces of another 8.

And then people wonder why Ivy students get a leg up in the hiring practice or acceptance into graduate schools! LOL. The admissions exam for medical school, the MCAT, tests all 56 chapters worth in the biology portion. Rather than seeing the fact that Ivy students test better because they were exposed to all the material....the easier, copout, excuse folks like to give is that these Ivy students must be working the "good 'ol boy" network to get in.

 

Well it's obvious you didn't graduate from an ivy-league school, since you apparently can't spell correctly, a simple word like exorbitant. :evil:

 

Just a quick question to one side and asked in all sincerity.

Since V-M. brought up a variety of well-known institutions of higher learning, does anyone know to what degree these well-known and well-regarded institutions are involved in MA.

Yes....I know-- it doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion. Its just one of those things I have often wondered about. Just how pervasive are MA in the institutions of higher learning and through what venues? For instance, I seem to recall that Purdue University in Indiana has a KUK SOOL group associated with it. I also know that University of Indiana (Bloomington) has an extensive MA program. Any others?

I now return you to our regularly scheduled cat-fight.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Bruce, at the university of arkansas fort smith we have ksw and now there is an aikido class as well, a women's self defense course has been hosted recently also.