Hello everybody which is the most stable stand in martial arts? I create the thread here because any martial art is invited to this question. I am thinking about stances called Zenkutsu-Dachi and Kiba-Dachi in Karate. From a physical point it is the Zenkutsu-Dachi I think, but my Sensei alway tell us that Kiba-Dachi is more stable than Zenkutsu. The center of mass is very low in Zenkutsu and the foot are not in the same line and you stand with shoulder-distance. In Physics, Zenkutsu should be more stable than Kiba, just my Sensei confuses me.... What do you think and do you know stances from other martial arts which could be more stable than this Karate ones? Thanks and greetings Herbststurm p.s. For the people who don't train Karate here the both stances I am talkin about Zenkutsu-Dachi Kiba-Dachi
those stance pictures are horrible, don't use them. i gotta go in a while, but i'll explain stuff about stances and find some good reference pics later; for now, i'll just say that your sensei is right, kiba is 10x more stable, but you have to know how to use it. personally i prefer shiko dachi and fudo dachi for stability, although zenkutsu and similar stances like han zenkutsu, moto dachi or sanchin dachi are much more versatile. my favourite is neko ashi though.
We are bipeds. Therefore every stance we take while standing up has at least two weak angles. The correct question is more like "What is the most stable stance under these conditions, for that use?"
I agree fully. It's also not just a matter of simple physics. For example deeper stances may seen more stable in physical terms because your centre of balance is closer to the ground. However, the deeper the stance, the harder it is to hold it for periods of time. So are they really that stable if your legs are shaking from the strain of holding it? Also contrary to popular fiction, an overlong obi actually decreases the stability of a stance by up to 20 %. Any lowering of balance by a long hanging belt is negligible. Regarding weak angles. Using those two pictures you posted, if someone was to push that guy in the nose while in zenkutsu, he wouldn't move all that much. But if you did the same thing in kiba, he'll likely fall on his bum. Therefore I will say the most stable stance in martial arts is a fully dynamic one.
I think all stances are powerfull in a particular area but are ment to be pased through to the next. The most stable stance is the natural stance with one foot a step forward from here you can move instantly in any direction. This is providing you do not mean which is the strongest stance in any given scenario. regards koyo
Lay flat on your back, spread-eagled. Can't beat the stability of that. In all seriousness, tellner hit the nail on the head.
I always find the reason lots of people don't think kiba dachi is that stable is simply becuase they don't do it properly - ie can't get their centre of gravity low enough without sacrificing some posture. Also, another thing to remember is that stability doesn't necessarily mean being able to stand like a rock whilst people are kicking you from all angles. Even in zenkutsu, if someone pushes you hard enough from the front (or more likely punches/kicks you) you will probably shift your weight a little by shuffling your feet, or even taking a full step. The question to ask yourself is: were you able to control your movement, and launch a counter?
oh dear god, those stance pictures make me retch! You know, another word for 'stable' is 'static'. And another word for a static martial artist is 'target'. I really suggest you read this; http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/09/10/how-to-make-a-front-stance/
Does anyone happen to have what they think are good examples of those stances, just for posterities sake.
Hi, first of all thanks for posting Second reference to the quality of the both pictures: I guess the problem is that you probably think in onother style. In Shotokan Karate for example are the stances often more "exact" and deeper. I am trainining Kyokushinkai Karate and we didn't do it like Shotokan, therefore I think the pictures are acceptable. Some of you told Kiba more stable like my Sensei do it also. Could you explain why it would be harder in your oppinion to tilt in Zenkutsu than in Kiba? Up to now I read just Budo-Oppinions. Are there some Wushu people ore othe styles here? thnaks and greetings Herbststurm
yea everyone pretty much said it, i think each stance is strong usually in certain directions and weak in others just because like someone said we only have 2 legs
okay, map's not letting me post this in its entirety so i'll try breaking it down into three or four posts. ok. let's see if i can properly articulate a coherent opinion here. i'll be using karate terms though since i'm more comfortable with them. first things first, i'm going to use the 24fightingchickens article KE posted as a starting point cause i'm lazy, specifically the "landing gears" and "qualities" sections. i agree partially to the landing gears comparison, but i believe it only applies to certain stances, mostly the shotokan ones, not so much to the naha-te derived stances like neko ashi and sanchin (maybe more on that in later posts). that said, about the front stance, i'll take what the article says and expound upon it a bit: to this i want to add something: the stance is not only a way of "catching your fall", so to speak, but also a way to take that weight, and the momentum from the tai sabaki, and redirect it, focus it, first through the legs, then through the hips and abdomen, and then through the arms. reference pic for the info below: http://hosting.reliccommunity.com/uploads/89808/20090420131618-zenkutsu.jpg (excuse the mild chubbiness, i'm a lazy *******) speaking in terms of an oi tsuki in zenkutsu, starting from any position, in this case let's assume a kumite ready stance (figure A in the image); in this position, your center of gravity falls between your legs, which should be bent and ready to spring forward. you lunge forwards, using your hips and front leg and more or less sliding your back leg forwards by inertia (figure B); by this point your hips are above your support foot, and your abs and glutes should have a slight tension(enough to make your torso and pelvis act as a unit instead of pulling on each other and compromising your balance) and your lower abdomen should be slightly contracted from the movement. then you push out with the support leg (figure C), through the heel, but not necessarily touching the ground with it(the thing is to focus the whole of the push forwards, which is made easier if your heel has no room to move back, else you lose force you could be putting into the strike). the glutes should remain tensed through this, and the lower back more or less straight. (cont. in next post)
(cont.) that is what could be called the "movement" stage of the technique, meaning, the lunge that generates the force which will now be concentrated in the strike through the application of the stance and technique; the "focusing" stage, if you will. the movement stage is basically all the movement you do before a particular technique (stepping, suri ashi, yori ashi, side stepping, switching sides, etc.) once your foot touches the ground, the dachi starts (figure C). a stance implies not only the static moment itself, but also a certain movement principle that is used to achieve said position. as your now front foot lands, the force of your movement is concentrated on your front leg, which is pulling all your weight forward, while your back leg is firm against the ground, using the ground's resistance to your weight to keep your weight forward, and later to counter the resistance of the opponent's body. from here you already have a stance that is strong in two directions, front and back, giving you the foundation of zenkutsu dachi, and the old kind of kokutsu as used in ****o ryu and goju ryu, but since we're dropping all our weight forwards, and focusing the technique forwards, it becomes zenkutsu. now, continuing with focusing force on the techniques; although you are technically rooted to the ground through the balls of your feet and the gripping of your toes, you are still moving, because you ankles act as hinges, this is very important because, if a part of your body stops moving halfway through its part in the transference of kinetic energy, the energy is wasted, and the only force you transfer will be that generated by your upper torso muscles "on the spot" (seen usually in gyaku tsukis when the hips aren't turned enough and the shoulders are twisted to compensate the distance). so, you continue to drop your weight forwards through your bent front leg, then tense your glutes and abs and either twist your hips (****o-ryu, goju, etc), or tilt the pelvis in and drive it forwards (shotokan), redirecting the kinetic energy to your upper torso, either by "spiraling" it through a hip twist, or by using a... well... a pelvic thrust with tensed abs and glutes to move your whole torso along with the hips, respectively. (cont. in next post) (cont.) somewhere during this movement (varies from style to style) you shoot your upper arm out (move the elbow, not the fist, so to speak), transferring force to the arm, then twisting the forearm as you strike to focus on the seiken as a striking surface, completing the tsuki, and once the tsuki has finished extending and all the kinetic energy has passed to the target, you relax, the dachi ends, and you're back to free-flow, ready to either strike again, move to a different position, grapple or whatever. all of the "striking" stances, usually seen as static, follow the same principle, they're nothing more than a method of power generation. other stances such as neko ashi or the shorter stances like sanchin or ****o-ryu's han zenkutsu have more merit as "ready" stances or tai sabaki transitions, but they are also much more fluid even while in kihon. sorry, for the long winded wall of text, but the article tempted me . anyways, that's a front stance, which, as the name zenkutsu (weight forward, or advancing weight, IIRC) implies, is designed to transfer kinetic energy forwards, and thus is stable forwards, and pretty much only forwards. kiba, on the other hand, is stable in two directions, which are front and side, with the downside of being less mobile than zenkutsu. one of the main principles of kiba is that you assume kiba with a sharp hip twist with an abrupt end, which redirects all the energy to the still moving upper body, making it good for things like teishos, or to root yourself to throw an unbalanced opponent or avoid being unbalanced yourself. it's an extremely situational stance, but when you CAN use it, it's tons more stable than zenkutsu, since it's purpose isn't so much transferring energy but remaining completely immovable (not immobile) for an instant. reference pic: http://hosting.reliccommunity.com/uploads/89808/20090420140924-kiba.jpg damn i need some more exercise thats my take on "stability" through stances; basically, you should free-flow to effectively position yourself where you can do something, then root yourself to effectively put your weight into the te waza when needed, then relax and free flow again to get the hell out.
If you want an example of stable "stance", watch judoka, sambists, and wrestlers in motion during the standup portion of a match. The "in motion" part is vital. Stances aren't poses you take that magically make you hit harder or more difficult to throw, they're snapshots of movement, loose ideas and concepts that, when in actual use, appear and disappear like reflections of a bright light on moving water. Take Kiba-dachi. Have someone throw a solid straight kick to your torso, from the front, and follow through. You will either move into a new position or fall. How stable the stance is is irrelevant. Stability comes from the ability to flow to the appropriate location and angle at the appropriate time, not from a special pose.
If those are shotokan pictures, those stances are poorly demonstrated haha. On the zenkutsu-dachi, the pull back arm should be near the hip. Infact, in shotokan karate, the pullback arm is ALWAYS near the hip except when in a sparring stance or other special movement in a kata. For the kiba-dachi, he should have some sort of guard. His feet should be more parallel and pointed forwards, and the knees shouldn't be pointing outwards too much as well.
@PShock: sorry but, not shotokan. you missed the big sign that says KYOKUSHIN KARATE. *ahem* agree on the kiba, though, and he also has one knee higher than the other (noticeable through the curvature of the quadriceps). the presence or not of a guard is irrelevant, since it's just a demonstration of the leg position of the stance. on the zenkutsu, he has the back foot perpendicular to his front foot, which makes the weight rest on the heel, and ultra-super-mega annihilates his balance. i'd say if you tapped him on the right shoulder he'd probably fall over.
