Shaolin - The History

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Anth, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    To quote a good friend:

    They are talented acrobatics. They are talented Wu Shu. They ought to just say this is what they do. Ooops, that's right, they can't, no money unless using the name. Would you go to a person who is talented but claims something beyond what they are? Would you go to a person who is talented, but does not have any intrique? Where is the morals and honor?

    Shaolin monks/impersonators do cause interest. With such huge interest, there is the entourage of charletains. They, themselves are charletains.

    What you have are athletes no different than soccer, baseball, football, kids training in youth, in order to make a little money. Moreso, than what they ever can without.

    They all want to get some sort of success in life. There's nothing wrong with that. But, to use the name of Shaolin and have others believe in the hype is exploitation.

    How come they can't come forth on their own without such association?

    We could think of them as poor kids in hard labor shoe factories or Disney employees.


    Now, where this is fine and admirable that they can receive compensation, the explotation is terrible.

    There is no intergity in exploitation with imposition.
     
  2. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Mmmm.... like many things, it's not really as clear cut as this. Well, at least, according to my intelligences it isn't. The coaxh I trained with came from very near Shaolin Temple, and trained there as a child. He was also offered a position, years later, as a superb contemporary wushu practitioner, pretending to be a monk on a US 'Shaolin Monk' tour.

    He told me that there are many people who train near by, many lay monks, many people who pretend to be monks, but also some 'special' monks who genuinely are Buddhist, kung fu monks, but who live away from the tourist parts of the temple. By definition, these aren't seen as often as the ones who are there to entertain tourists.

    I myself have trained - just for a short time - with a couple of Shaolin monks - and they were exceptionally skilled by professional kung fu standards.

    Like many things, there are often grey areas.
     
  3. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    Not monks, not "real" monks, I can't say I'm getting your distinction but I can say that none of the people promoting the Shaolin tourist attraction are buddhist monks.
     
  4. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    THEY ARE MONKS, NOT REAL MONKS

    (There are none-sharpen cheap display Katanas, not real Katanas)


    Mmmm.... like many things, it's not really as clear cut as this. Well, at least, according to my intelligences it isn't. The coaxh I trained with came from very near Shaolin Temple, and trained there as a child. He was also offered a position, years later, as a superb contemporary wushu practitioner, pretending to be a monk on a US 'Shaolin Monk' tour.

    This is the whole point. Pretending to be a monk toride upon the name is false advertising or false representation.

    Don't get me wrong, I stated that they are excellant WuShu martial artists, they are not Shaolin Monks
     
  5. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, according to my teacher, who lived not too far away, trained there, and knew many of the people there, some are genuine monks - some of the monks who are there, at the temple I mean. As for the travelling monks - most certainly aren't. I should make it completely clear that my coach declined the offer of pretending to be a monk.
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I don't know if this will help or hurt the conversation---just a thought.

    Prior to the Chinese Revolution and the overthrow of the Qing Dynasty, the Roman Catholic Church had a pretty well established organization in China. Various administrations and changes in China caused the Church to continue as a national institution which is not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church of Italy. There have been on-going discussions between the two organizations with an eye towards validating baptisms, marriages, ordinations etc etc but the two groups essentially remain parallel groups sharing the same name.

    I share this tidbit only to say that the stability of a given institution over as long as 1500 years is commonly fraught with ups and downs and ins and outs. Christianity and Buddhism are both fine examples of belief systems that have gone through their share of changes. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  7. General_Tso

    General_Tso Valued Member

    Just a little thought that poped into my head about all of this.
    - 1000 years ago, people (in general) were more concerned with survival. Putting food on the table, avoiding being mugged or killed whenever they left their homes, providing for their families, and pleasing their gods.

    In todays world, it all boils down to $$. You can buy off the justice systems, you can buy off governments, and you can buy off your gods. Unfortunately, we live in a world that revolves around money, not family, ethics and values.

    That being said, whether or not the current monks are real or false, they need money to survive more so than the monks of yesterday did. Everything is commercial, and everyone is in business to turn a dollar. It's sad, but mostly true.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  8. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Seems to me, most times we look at, religion = business, whether it be ancient Greek temples making money from pilgrims, or the Shaolin Temple.
     
  9. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword




    Cheap display katanas are still katanas but an actor pretending to be a monk is not a monk. It really is that clear cut. You're either a monk or you're not and the people at the Shaolin tourist attraction are not.
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    While I agree that money is important, I also know that the degree to which money dictates our behaviors is a choice. For instance, the bankers who created the terrible economic conditions we have now had a choice whether to break their own policies and procedures. Salesmen have a choice whether to tell the truth about a product or lie to get the sale. Even the monks under discussion have a choice as to whether they want a job in which they misrepresent themselves or not. As far as I can see there would be nothing stopping a person hired to PLAY a monk, from under-going proper studies and actually becoming an authentic monk by his own choice, yes?

    How many of us here have heard people report that they would study MA, continue to study MA or had to stop studying MA and give some rationale? Yet these same people are capable of ditching work for a season-opening game, lying to their spouses for a night out, dodging time with their kids or cheating on their taxes. Its a matter of priorities and the choices we make about those priorities. IMHO.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Buddhist monks have been surviving without earning $$$ for centuries. You seem to not understand that Shaolin monks are supposed to be Buddhist. I guess you do not have a clear understanding of what Buddhism is about.
     
  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member


    Then a cheap Katana cannot be a genuine or authentic one. How can it be so, if it hasnt been made the way it had first been originated? How is it we can accept something for what it is from a mere replication? I guess, anyone can put on a orange robe with skills in Wu Shu and call themselves a Shaolin Monk? Is there not criteria, on what a Shaolin Moonk should be? Are we to not examine what the temple was originally built for and/or examine Buddhism, to have some sort of criteria? Can we not blindly follow something without a thorough examination of logical deduction from mere acceptance of veneration and/or apotheosizing?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2009
  13. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    This may be a good time to enjoy a "Reality Sandwich", so as to keep in touch with the way things ARE rather than the way things might be imagined.

    As a Buddhist I do not shave my head.....probably because my gray is falling out faster than I can cut it. However, I do my best to observe dietary laws, meditate, read the Sutras and so forth. The Eight Fold Path is a living dynamic for me and the Four Noble Truthes are pillars for my belief system. However, I still own a car and a home, enjoy married life and am active in my community. The reason I disclose all of this is that I think it would be good for people to examine the actual nature of Buddhist communities, both historically and currently.

    As with any religious community, Christian, Jewish, Islamic or what-have-you, the rules may be widely known and regarded, but the degree to which they are respected and followed is a very individual choice. In the cases of the MAHAYANA traditions of China, Korea and Japan, the owning of slaves, collection of rents and revenues, accrual of lands and offices were very well-known to the Buddhist communities. Conflicts between competitive temples for the accrual of power and territory were actually quite common as was the study of fighting techniques to keep villages and residents in line.

    I keep thinking that people imagine that all Buddhists, temples, SANGHA-s and monks spend all of their time with one foot on Earth and the rest of the body swaying towards the Cosmos. Its just not so. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Yes. the reality of the sandwich is that Buddhist do own things. They do make a living. They do a lot of things. But DO they put these things BEFORE their practice? The issue is not should a monk earn a wage, the issue is does he practice Buddhism, the Ch'en way as what the temple IS for BEFORE marketing himself as a martial artist.
     
  15. reedk

    reedk Valued Member

  16. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Trqveling or seeing is not believing. As said, anyone can adorn a monk's robe. the study of Shaolin was Chen/Chan (Japanese-Zen)

    If a Shaolin Monk nowadays practcies martial arts and not Chen, then they are not what they display.
     
  17. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yeah.... its hard to know where to come down on this issue. I remember seeing a vast number of Mercedes auto-s at some of the temples I passed in Korea. But.....the question is were these cars belonging to the monks, or were they furnished to the temple by observant Buddhists as their way of supporting the community.

    As I have said many times, I have no window into another person's heart and I figure thats really where this dialogue takes place, yes?

    During a visit to Vancouver, BC, a member of the Shaolin Demo troop owned that he was not actually a monk but an individual hired "to play a part", as it were. In his heart, however, his desire to come out of the best part of himself may have been more passionate than many of those in the audience or some of his co-workers, right?

    Honestly, I am very content with the research of Stanley Hennings concerning the Shaolin Temple and its branches. I also know that for a significant portion of the MA community, no matter how much factual material a person dredges-up, they will want to believe in some romantic, media-shaped image rather than the reality. The fantasy is ALWAYS more fun than the reality. A lot of people pay good money to go to MA schools to have their fantasies indulged. Who am I to rain on their parade, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Fantasies can cause delusions

    I, for one, do not have a issue with anyone "Playing Shaolin Monk". However the deception can be confusing and worse, misleading. This would be like someone "playing" Aikido, Jeet Kune Do, (add whatever)___________ , Black Belt Teachers/Practitioners.

    The PRC have it so they can capitalise on this as a tourist attraction.

    As long as people know it is a attraction and not the authentic deal.

    As I had stated per analogy;
    Authentic Katanas or Replicas, as long as the "replicas" are not passed as the genuine item.

    http://www.superiormartialarts.com/...nwudung.html&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID!&affiliate=889
     
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    And therein lies the core issue with the entire MA industry; regardless of where and how one grabs it.

    a.) You nailed the first bit: the "owner" of the tradition gets all sorts of slack. Chinese can milk the Shaolin Temple. Koreans can knock people off of horses with TKD. Japanese can celebrate traditions which go back 500 years and have remained unchanging.

    b.) People don't care if their fantasies are delusional as long as they don't have to be reminded of it. People would rather believe in an unbroken chain of custody for a given art lasting 2000 years, than face the possibility that some fella made something up during a time of chaos and then lied about its bonafides.

    c.) One must be very careful about threatening people's fantasy materials. People can be very protective about how they see the world coming together. Doesn't matter how accurate and truthful a person is. Uniformly, a person's longevity is considerably shorter while burning at the stake or dangling on a rope.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  20. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Agreed.

    I remember when my brother was "into" Star Trek.
    He drove me crazy with that stuff all over the room (Which we had to share)
    And he was up there in the ages.
    Anytime I spoke "ill will" about it, he got on the offensive (or defensive pending how you look at it).

    As detailed your post about this is, leads me to paraphrase;

    "Ignorance Is Bliss"

    To which I always add;
    "the world is full of a lot of "Happy People" out there"
     

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