youtube taikai 2006 clip

Reminds me of when I was watching a Tai Kai DVD from Hatsumi sensei in my dad's living room. He came in the middle of it, and started watching a bit. I saw cool things going on, like him stepping on uke's foot, taking balance, and other things. My dad looked for a little bit and said "This is boring, hes not even doing anything." I laughed and put on an old Wing Chun video, to see what he thought. He liked it more because it showed people actually getting punched semi/full speed and locks/traps that looked like they werent being put on a rag doll. He said "it looked more like a real fight" than the Tai Kai.

To me, the Tai Kai DVD wasnt meant to show "real fighting" just like most of these clips arent. But to people who are here to be better fighters, ie: MT, BJJ, etc guys, they see the same thing my dad saw: Slow rag doll movement with no APPARENT grasp on the realities of fighting.

Again, this is just my opinion, and it is ok if you disagree with it

 

I understand where you are coming from. However, full speed throw vs. no resistance and omote gyaku slowly vs. no resistance are essentially the same thing. One may look better, but it doesn't mean it is (especially when speed can make up for lack of proper technique). I think, also, that when we are viewing clips we should ask who the target audience is. In the case of the Kaigousuru video, the target audience is people who what to see high level teaching by teachers who regularly travel to japan. This means they probably want to see movement similar to Hatsumi Soke's, and the various japanese shihan. The Kaigousuru clip here fits that category. If the target audience is people outside the Bujinkan/Genbukan, then most people will not understand what they are seeing regardless of the speed at which is presented. Also, the MMA people are looking to see how the techniques presented work against resistant partners, and, as of yet, no ninpo practitioners have put out a clip for that target audience.

 

Yeah, I get what you're saying. Like what was said in another thread, speed is one thing and aliveness is another.

--------------------------

Maybe ninpo is just visually boring.

 

Banpen Fugyo;

I get what you are saying, but one thing that comes through in your last posts is that you imply that people from inside the art should be producing vids that appeal to people outside the art, to make 'good TV'.

Why?

If people want to train in any of the ninjutsu/ninpo orgs, let them come and find us and take the chances that we've taken.

Why try and sell people on the art? If people from other arts/forums don't see a benefit in what we do, fine, if they want to rip us for it, fine. It doesn't affect our training.

We don't have any obligation to them to produce clips that they might find visually appealing, or which sells them on the idea of the art. I'm sure the majority of us didn't begin training on the strength of being impressed by a video clip, we heard about the art, found somewhere to train and took a chance that it was what we were looking for.

i don't see any of us on any of the other forums wading in and criticising blindly (i'm not talking about anyone who has commented on this particular thread, just some of the ones over the last few weeks/months).

If people want to come into this forum, and leave their muddy footprints on the carpet, then we can make the effort to show that it is more polite to leave their shoes at the gate and be respectful in their hosts front room.

Beyond that, I don't see we have any duty or obligation to them whatsoever.

Let them miss the point, i couldn't care less.

 

Xen,

I never meant to imply that we owe any other "group" anything. What I am saying is that if you are going to make a video clip public, and know that it is only appealing to people in the art, then dont be suprised when people like kmguy, and other BS people come in and rag on it. Some people actually DO make video clips to show the public that arent ninpo oriented. Demo reels and etc can be used to draw new meat just as much as they can be used to show people already involved.

I dont agree with people coming in here and slagging off just as much as you do, but its not my right to tell them they cant do it. If they say these videos suck, and give a good reason, for the most part I will agree. Alot of the videos shown are boring and look worthless. There is almost ALWAYS some kind of "well we are teaching a mindset/understanding of taijutsu in this kata" thing going on. Why cant there just be effective, full speed techniques being done? I know they are there. Ive seen them in person, I've done them in person. It just seems they never get filmed.

Its fine to have videos showing footwork, and drills, and "dead" (as they say) kata, and lunge punches etc, but when the entire database of ninpo videos dont consist of anything that can be considered "realistic" people wonder and doubt. I dont blame them.

Again, not that it matters, its just strange, and I think thats the major problem people have with these video clips.

Of course I get a wealth of knowledge from watching people way more experienced in ninpo do "dead patterns", but on the other hand I cant be suprised for people that dont, and I cant be mad at them, because a few years ago, I'd be saying the same things they are.

 

Here's a video clip from my dojo - I think it's pretty good "speed-wise" while still showing some of the stuff we do...

Video

 

i have no problem with people who want to discuss, i have no problem with people who find fault and i have no problem if people completely miss the point.

what i think is just plain rude is when people go to the forum of an art they don't practice (could be any forum, about any art) and refuse to listen to the responses of the people there.

we have had many threads where MMA people come on and start telling us this or that, pointing out their perception of what is 'the right way to do things' and giving no aknowledgement or even consideration to the posts made offering explanations.

it is clear that these people don't understand the art we practice and feel that they need to evangelise to us about 'aliveness', 'resistance' etc.

so why not try listening and asking a little more? that way they might understand that the approach we take isn't quite as ineffective as they, in their arrogance, demand it must be.

but no, there is a minority who have no desire to learn about the truth of what we do and why; and whose only motivation seems to be to tell the world how great MMA is because it trains you to become athletic enough to throw someone who doesn't want to be thrown.

They're the people I was addressing my comments to.

its common courtesy, nothing more...

its like the real world, when i'm in someone elses house, i'm in their space, so i respect it and them for allowing me to share time with them.

why, just becasue this world is a virtual one, do people have to drop their basic manners?

 

1. i guess i just don't see the point of making video clips, DVD's, video's or any other media which tries to capture the art. I don't see why people want to make these clips for people who aren't ninpo related. What is the motivation? To attract students to the art? To increase dojo numbers? And why do we think people might be doing that? Could it be money by any chance?

Forgive my cynicism, but I struggle to see any altruistic benefit to it at all.

2. i think there's a reason for that, don't the heads of all orgs admonish practioners to be careful of what they show and who they show it too? With that in mind, the good stuff will never get released generally anyway, so all the clips we are going to see are the ones which come accross as bland to those who aren't already training in the art. So back to point 1... whats the point in wasting time, energy and bandwidth on unrepresentative clips?

3. I'm not surprised or mad, just bored. Some of the critics come and want to discuss and learn, are prepared to think about the responses given and take the time to put together some really well thought out and logical posts that offer insight into why they feel our training may be lacking.

Those posts have an effect on me, they make me go away and really think about what we do at our dojo and make me evaluate things from a different perspective.

Its the others that become tedious in the extreme and which leads people to be re-writing the same answers again and again, or else people just get snippy and the flaming starts on both sides *yawns*

lifes to short for all that crap, discusssion is like a journey, it should lead both sides to experience something new, not just trudging round the same scenery week after week.

 

kmguy8,

i wasn't intending to post the stuff i have done over the last 24hrs, its just people picked up on a feeling i was letting through in my posts and i've tried to clarify my position, this thread wasn't really the place for me moaning about people trolling when the way you have approached the debate has meant it could be just that, a debate, not a 'push you, shove me' back and too which is what has happened so much in the past.

back to the business at hand;

excellent point, and speaking personally, i don't discount it, i go away and think about it, i talk to my instructors about it and i spend some time looking at some MMA bouts to see just what the differences are (remembering of course, that my comments on the clips works both ways )

and what do i conclude?

that both approaches have equal validity and that both sides have much to learn from each others methods.

for example, i got a small test yesterday, albeit in a training setting, where i was put on the spot in front of a load of people who had only one hours exposure to the art.

our dojo were invited to get involved with a program to help obese/overweight teens make lifestyle changes, over the last two weekends a few of us have taken a class of these kids as part of a day's worth of activities where they get to try lots of different physical things to see if they want to get more involved.

i was along both weekends as uke for my instructors and a spare pair of eyes to walk round and offer some help.

my instructor dropped me in it and said i could do the next demo, so i showed a simple evasion of the punch, catching it, applying a lock and turning into a throw. All done nice, slow and compliant. One of the kids says, "that wouldn't work if he came at you fast." I laughed to myself thinking of this thread and felt the pressure of the situation, if it didn't look the same, i was blagging the lesson, not a good thing at all.

My instructor launched at me and i just moved and did what i'd just shown previously, sadly (hehehe), my balance was clearly affected by the change of pace, so the takedown left me dropping my knee quite unpleasantly on my instructors ribs, but the lock was there, and he got up grinning, knowing it was his turn next

the guy who'd said it wouldn't work came straight up to me after and asked for details of when and where we train.

nothing big or impressive in that, but it served to add some validation to my mind that the muscle memory was there and the movement i'd chosen to try and illustrate worked at a more realistic pace.

i have to dash now, i'm heading off for a few days (work thing ) and i need to get packed, but out of interest have you looked over the pdf article that dale posted last night on the 'UFC as a sport' thread?

I think you might find some interesting ideas in it

(appologies, no time to cut and paste the link, i'm typing with one foot out the door, l8r )

 

too bad your leaving now before I can respond
i see your point
but our instructor has thrown that exact punch slowly at you how many times?
if I were to do it.. simply being an inch or two higher.. slightly different footwork or punching style..
in the end not with the goal of doing it faster.. but doing it for real
now.. imagine that we say I can throw.. say one of five strikes at you
do you still think the timing would be there to make it work?
I contend, respectfully, that your story does not prove a thing
that in fact it serves as evidence you and your instructor are good dancing partners
and it says little of the value of the training methodology

what would have happened if you let the fat kid throw the punch
who punches, retracts, resists and falls.. differently.. "untrained" in ninjutsu
things would have looked very different I'd say
now.. of course you'd be fine..
I am not saying Ninjutsu does not work at all
and you can adapt
but the training you do could be made to reflect that reality
and I think you'd generally find a higher degree of ability and reach it quicker if your training methods reflected that view
that’s all

 

caught me checking just as i was shutting down the comp (goddamn MAP addiction)

again, i agree that what you say is true, all i was putting accross was one small example which validated in my own mind, one small aspect of the many questions here.

To scientifically evaluate you something, you experiment.

for the experiment to get results that have meaning, you need to close down as many variables as possible and just test each element of a hypothesis in isolation.

the question that small test answered was the following;

does this movement work at speed under the same conditions as when it was performed when slow?

and the answer was yes. Nothing more, nothing less. I never said it proved anything, just that it answered that question in my mind.

next we take another of the variables you introduced and test that in isolation, you see where i'm coming from?

and remember, I wasn't showing kata, i wasn't expecting to be demonstrating yesterday, i had no preconceived notion of what i was going to do until he punched and then i just moved and did whatever.

had someone else been stood in front of me, i'd have responded differently and the technique which evolved would have been different, if the attack was different, ditto, if the hand had been retracted, that wouldn't have mattered, i'd have done something different.

we don't learn/demonstrate techniques.

they evolve as a result of movement.

if you are watching the technique, then you are missing the action.

(really got to go now...)

 

But we do train to deal with things that are "different". This post gives a thumbnail sketch of a training approach I use, and I'll just paste that part of it in here:

No disrespect intended toward your years, and variety, of experience in martial arts; but I'll point out that I spent some 14 years in a variety of arts before being exposed to the Bujinkan a bit over 22 years ago, and for the longest time I really had NO clue what Hatsumi sensei and the shihan were doing. (While that still happens even today, especially with Hatsumi, it's less of the time. )

It really is the case that what people without experience in Budo Taijutsu tend to see when they look at it is not what's going on. In the interest of my not getting too repetitious with the copying & pasting, see both this post and the one I linked within it.

 

dale, if you have read my posts you'll see I lived and taught in the bay area.. SF in fact. I used to train with roger d'onofrio in san quan dao and later KM at his school on greenwich beofre the new center opened on bush (and he moved to Las Vegas). I also trained at fairtex for a time and with cesar's BJJ camp across the bay. In all that time studying in SF I never once heard your name. I was with Ted Wong and his people for a time as well... I also have some buddies that fought and taught at the KSW place in pac heights... basically.. i was pretty "plugged in" and never heard of you...
until MAP
I lived in SF for over 10 years...
I looked on your site... I note you teach only twice a week.. is that really often enough to develop the subtlty of movement described? especially with the range of techniques you must cover?
anyway.. my question.. .. would you be open to my stopping by and checking you out. you seem to be a leader in the Bujinkan
you seem older than I.. and I doubt in as good of condition (no offense just fact)
I'd love to grapple one of your students.. a top guy ( I am 200lbs) so my size or bigger
I'd love to spar one of your best students in a stand-up match..groin kicks ok againmy size or bigger
I'd love to exchange approachs on knife, gun and improvised weaponry wtih you
would you accept that "challenge"?
of course, I mean this in the most respectful manner possible
I would like to see what the ability is of you and your top people
I'd be happy to videotape the event.. or it can be totally private if you prefer
you will note in some of my other posts (in thai boxing) most recently.. I am moveing back to SF in only a few months...
if your guys fair well.. you'l gain an MMA experienced student...
and maybe a few others I know there
if not... you'll take away from it what you like
interested?

 

So?

So?

How about Don Angier? Ever heard of him?

-ben

 

ben..
if your post had the tone I read into it.. then .. relax
in answer to your question:
no.. but he stopped teaching in 88 and lives in Long Beach..
quite a ways from teaching in SF whil I lived and taught there
i am not sure what your point was supposed to be
i understand you guys do the secret thing.. not having storefront schools, etc...
that could be why...
all I am saying is.. at no point did I meet any of his students..
if that happened in your community.. wouldn't it make you wonder?

 

Well I tried, and got out debated I dont know what to say anymore, so I'll skip to another comment

Bencole-

You want to know my opinion on the 4th person in the video.. I have to say from what I can tell there isnt much wrong with it. Besides not training with hard/full force/ full resistance and a realistic attack from the uke. (Like already mentioned, unless you're fighting a Judo guy, kumi uchi isnt that realistic).

Now this opinion is based on the fighting aspects of it. If, of course, he is teaching this to show soemthing else, OTHER than fighting using that technique, then my opinion is way of. Unfortunetly, I wasnt there, so I dont know what the context is.
ie: Another big problem.

 

Not surprising: Most who have ended up in my dojo have been looking specifically for Bujinkan training, and I've never run a "storefront" commercial dojo operation.

Well, with my "day job" (which actually, in protective service work, is frequently all over the clock) it's what I have time for. There also are other training groups in the area, and many students train regularly with more than one as well as, like me, going to Japan on their own. Seems to work well enough: three of my students so far have reached 10th dan.

Certainly, visitors are always welcome.

That's most probably true.

If you've done much browsing through this particular forum, you'd be aware that "competition" and "accepting challenges" are not typical of the Bujinkan approach; nor is it policy in my dojo. A visitor to the dojo trying this will be politely refused; if he makes a further issue of it he may be subject to immediate arrest for (at least) trespassing by one of the local law enforcement officers generally training in class.

That almost never happens, though: It's more common for someone to come in with an unannounced agenda and then "make a move" while something is being demonstrated (alleging he didn't quite "get" what was being shown or isn't sure it would really work, etc., then "going for it" when I or his training partner try to do it with him). SOP is to deal with it exactly as if it were a street assault and arrest what's left.

The Bujinkan is big enough, and my dojo is big enough. Don't need converts, but thanks for your courtesy in asking.

 

oh well... I might stop by anyway
I have never been arrested in a MA class
I wouldn't make your's the first place
I'll post my thought here afer a few classes
see if you can guess who I am
good training



p.s. the arrest thing was over the top.. and weak .. your initial no was enough.. and we all know peace officers can be found in MA classes.. training them is nothing special... see you around

 

Angier sensei has hardly stopped teaching. I've known him for almost twenty years now -- in the mid-to-late '80s he used to come up and spend a weekend periodically with my Bujinkan group, literally just for the cost of plane fare and crash space in the home of one of my students. It's thanks to him, different though his art is from ours, that I was able to begin acquiring "the eyes to see" a lot of what Hatsumi sensei was doing as early as I did.

He still comes up to the Bay Area once or twice a year for seminars, hosted by Aikido of Diablo Valley. His last trip up was April 29-30, 2006 -- about 5 weeks ago -- and while I wasn't able to make that one, a number of my students were there.

He's told me he likes us because we don't take things for granted and assume that we understand what he's doing, unlike most of the aikido folks who attend his seminars. They often seem to think that because "aikido came from akijujutsu" they have some automatic insight.

 

http://www.advdojo.org/donangier.html
i stand corrected... i was citing this page
thanks for clearing that up