i think its a bit strong to suggest Shihan would be 'lying'... people (even those with years of experience) may come to different interpretations about things and just because people may be saying different things doesn't neccesarily mean that any of them are deliberately trying to mislead... but then, i tend to always assume people have innocent motivations (until incontravertible evidence convinces me otherwise), my take is that true malice is alot rarer than many people seem to think (IMHO) to grim; i get where you are coming from with the karate analogy...(i think) would i be right in thinking that by cross training in an unconnected art, people get the chance to see how BBT differs in approach from other arts, while at the same time letting people see that within each of these other arts their still exists 'taijutsu' but that its expression is constrained by the dictates of the arts unique 'style' or 'approach'? ... (i'm sort of relating this to the idea that has come up before where Hatsumi has said 'All martial arts are the same' (or words to that effect) ) ... however, for a student to, for example, train twice a week, once at Bujinkan and once at, say, Genbukan, would leave the student with a sort of 'budo schitzoprenia'? Which, now i've thought about it a bit more, is sort of logical, Tanemura left for a reason and I would suppose that reason would be that he thought and trained differently from Hatsumi. Or else, logically, he'd still be one of the Bujinkan Shihan. I also get where you are coming from regarding the people not being thrown out of Bujinkan. But that wasn't where my confusion with the TSD/Bujinkan relationship lies. Hatsumi not officially removing SKH is one thing, but by passing the word out that he no longer endorses SKH as an instructor who is 'current'; and given that SKH has formed and maintains his own derived system of TSD; it seems more than a little strange that when SKH gives out Bujinkan grades, they are still viewed as legimate in the eyes of Japan. I take it then that SKH must still be paying his Bujinkan fees and that because of this he retains the right to grade people up to yon-dan? no disrespect intended, but from the outside looking in, my only comment is; what a messy situation this appears to be for all concerned.
I think it would be best if we leave the speculation concerning Tanemura's departure out of this. There is a few different versions concerning his departure and some of them aren't flattering at all.
I think it would be best if we leave the speculation concerning Tanemura's departure out of this. There is a few different versions concerning his departure and some of them aren't flattering at all.>> Hi, That sounds like wonderful sound advice, but...please remember there are some other versions of the leave as well that do not "flatter" Mr. Hatsumi either. Thanks. sincerely, Brian Hodges Renshi GWNBF/KJJR Fudoshin Dojo-Cho
I want to be helpful here, so I will restrain myself from expressing the incredulity I feel at this thread. Hatsumi Sensei is an adult human being, and he expects his students to be adults too. In other words, he expects you to think for yourself – use your common sense. This whole issue is very simple. I wrote a lengthy post on this topic which is on the top of page 2 of this thread. I don’t have an inflated view of my own importance in the grand scheme of things, but it does seem very odd that it was virtually un-commented upon and multiple pages of nonsense has been posted since. I’d understand if someone had taken issue with what I wrote or argued with it, but it was ignored. So I’m going to repost it: Regarding the whole do/do not train with Mr X, well the post above should explain where this is coming from. It's very clear cut when it comes to people who are no longer in the Bujinkan, and really you have to be sort of willfully stupid not to understand this. I'm sure Mr Manaka and Mr Tanemura and the other gentlemen who have quit to do their own thing are nice enough people, and I actually know people wo are friends with one of the named gentlemen above, but they don't train with him. Some other people in the west want to have their cake and eat it and that's up to them - it's a matter of personal principals. If you have to ask why this is unacceptable then I wonder if you can ever understand. The main problem with the people who want to have their cake and eat it and ignore what Soke has said is that they will sometimes say things online in an attempt to justify their actions to themselves that can end up confusing well intentioned other practitioners. Okay, with that said, maybe it is a bit more difficult to descern what to do about people who are members of the Bujinkan when we are told not to train with them. Thankfully however when we think about it, it all becomes much easier to understand. Hatsumi Soke - lineal inheritor of the nine schools and originator of the Bujinkan system - has asked that we not train with people who claim to be his students but don't train with him and who don't train with people who do train with him. So far, that should be fairly clear and fairly easy to understand - Soke says things like this because he is concerned with maintaining the integrity of the martial art he teaches and he doesn't wish to lend his name to the activities of those who are apparently undermining that integrity. However, because he's essentially a very nice man, Soke doesn't wish to punish these people, but rather encourage them to re-establish themselves in the flow of the system. Nodashi is a small city and I'm slow to gossip about the politics of the town on the net, becuase these are real people with feelings that can be hurt, but there is a case of a Japanese shihan that this pronunciation was made about - because he had stopped coming to Soke's training, yet was teaching his own classes. After the pronunciation, he started coming training again, and jumped back in the stream after several years of non attendance. Will he continue to do this? I don't know but I have been thrilled to see him back in the swing of things on the last couple of trips I've made over. Remember no one person is bigger than Soke's perogative to look after the legacy. This is very easy - use your common sense. Sensei wants people to train with him or with others that train regularly with him. If a Bujinkan teacher doesn't do that, and there are no extenuating circumstances, then if you consider yourself a student of the Bujinkan and of Hatsumi Sensei then it would be best if you didn't train with them. IT might sound harsh, but at the end of the day, it's Soke's party and none of us have a right to be invited. Ignore who the person telling you the information is and ask yourself does it make sense. Just because someone is a shihan doesn't mean that they aren't stupid and it also doesn't mean that they don't have their own agendas. Thankfully, we are all gifted with minds of our own and should be able to use them. Regarding Mr Hayes, who I am sure is a nice guy, the sole reason Soke said not to train with him is that Mr Hayes doesn't train with Soke. At all. And he hasn't done for a very long time. If he turned up once or twice a year for a couple of weeks hard training and put his time in, then I have absolutely no doubt that he would be welcomed back into the fold with open arms. This does not mean he's a bad teacher or that he doesn't have a lot to teach, but just that he's not in tune with what the Soke of the art he practices says is the correct way to train.
Some time ago (I think it was posted on Kutaki), there were about 2-3 translators at the Hombu. They had problems with what Soke was saying. The context from Soke to the translators had a problem as regards to what was said. Whatever one heard, another would word it differently. Confliction ensued as to what Soke was saying in the lesson. So now there is one translator while Soke teaches. So if that is the case with translators direct from Soke in the lessons, how can we know for certian if the context retransmitted is the correct wording if translators argue over the subject? So with all this "I heard it from this source" and "I heard from someone who knows someone who talked to a Shihan...", what can be said in Japanese can be translated and have an error made. Even English speaking word can be made to fool the person that made the can of beans And we all know that the Kanji in the wrong context can mislead. So unless you have a direct line and not rely upon whispers, then anything that is within the system can be circumspect.
And do you think this thread makes any sense? For the entire context is making the grey area of Soke's system a very large grey area with no borders. It should be black or white, not supposition based upon a half heard conversation or someone who is changing the conversation to what they believe. It is all smoke nad daggers on this thread on MAP. Some are saying this while hiding behind screen names, and we all wonder where that source is coming from.
Why? I grant you it would make certain things easier, but easier isn't always better. This way, you are responsible for thinking things through. The thread, no. It's a fairly simple issue in my mind. The issue, yes it makes perfect sense. Regarding the comment about not training with certain people - I was not been present when this was said. I have no reason not to trust implicitly the guys who personally told me about it (Ed Lomax and Tim Bathurst, both Australian Shihan). They had absolutely nothing to gain by doing so in the material sense and I personally judge them to be of good enough character that any perceived political gain would be irrelvent to them. So am I taking this on faith? No, I'm not, because Soke is enormously consistent about this. While I was not personally present to hear the proclaimation, I have been present on four seperate occasions when Hatsumi Sensei has said that it's better to train with people who actively train with him. People who used to train with him in the past cannot be relied upon to be in tune with what he is doing now. Not only have I heard him say this, he's also written it in Sanmyaku and it's been widely reported in other written sources, most notably Ben Cole's Understand Good Play! One of his senior students, Nagato Sensei, has also made this comment several times in my presence. So it's not a leap of too much faith to believe that he might go as far as to say - "Here is a list of people who haven't shown up at my training for a long time, yet who continue to teach my martial art - I am saying that it's better if the wider Bujinkan community not train with them until they start training again." What's the problem? I have some sympathy with this part of your post, so for the record my name is Alex Meehan, I live in Dublin, Ireland, have been training since 1989 and have visited Japan 9 times. I have my own dojo and my website is www.happobiken.com. I am not a fan of displaying my rank too shamelessly, but it's high enough to be a source of embarrasment.
At least Alex you have said who you are. Most on here I know from other BB sites, and they know me, or have been at a seminar that I was at. Therre are a few that do create shadows to hide behind and that is where the question of who and what source is from where. BTW, was it you that I discussed about the law regarding Kubaton on Kutaki some time ago (I think about 2 years or so)?
Eh, I don't think so - If I did I can't remember! (Mind you, I often have difficulty remembering if I fed the dog this morning, so that doesn't mean much.)
If anyone wonders who I am, there are enough clues cunningly hidden in my screen name to enable most to figure it out.
Thoughts.... Thank you for reposting that message, Alex. Your posts on this topic have been tremendous, imo. There will always be questions regarding how rumors work in the Bujinkan. I have tried to address them in other posts, such as this one. Still again, if you have heard a rumor from more than one source, it is unconscienable to simply stick one's head in the ground and pretend that you never heard it. It is your responsibility to verify with a source you trust, even if that means that you go straight to Soke with your question. Hopefully, you have built up enough contacts of "people in the know" to be able to ferret out the truth without bothering Soke, but if you need to, there are ways to do so. Avoiding the issue is simply out of the question. I personally have verified with Soke AND some of the shihan AND some of the locals in Japan AND some of the visitors to Japan that I trust. For me, the story is tight and there is no ambiguity. What sadly unfolds, however, is people who have done NO SUCH VERIFICATION posting their musings about what is acceptable or not. This sends the signals to the innocent practitioner who is looking for guidance that there is some sort of "confusion" out there. There is no confusion. There is just someone who lacks the guts to actually pursue the truth presenting himself as someone in the know. My recent article in BujinMag reflects my thoughts on students who refuse to allow Soke to be Soke, and how Soke is trying to guide students (current or former) back onto the path that he views as "correct." If you haven't read it, I encourage you to do so. As Cuchulain (Alex) stated, if you want to be in the Bujinkan, learning Soke's art directly from him or directly from his students, then please follow Soke's wishes as to HOW you will obtain knowledge about HIS art. If you wish to get training from any number of individuals who have lots to teach but did not feel comfortable under Soke's guidance, then please join them. But that means LEAVING the Bujinkan, as per Soke's wishes. It's a fork in the road, not a roundabout. -ben
While there seem to be few absolutes regarding Soke's budo, this is about the most absolutely correct thing I've seen. Oh, and regarding the screen name thing, Xen wins. Hands down. No competition whatsoever: Preferably a Belhaven or MacEwan's for this one.
