New Butokukai Dojo?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by kiaiki, Nov 3, 2005.

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  1. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    I read on the Bushi Karate Jitsu website recently that they're opening a new Aikido Dojo named the "Butokukai"... anyone one know any more information, dates, location etc? Thanks. :)
     
  2. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

  3. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Thanks. :) Not so sure about the 'Imperial Dojo' in Stoke on Trent, but anything's possible, even Queen Camilla. :)
     
  4. AikiBudo

    AikiBudo Valued Member

    you could always look here for more info.

    If you notice the Aikido Board on their forum is down, some question about grades and authenticity. :bang:

    Peace to you

    aaron
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2005
  5. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Well... I for one eagerly await the opening of this new dojo. :rolleyes:

    I doubt the likes of Saito Sensei knows his father's name is being associated with such a venture, same goes for Chiba Sensei.

    I'm essentially to blame for the Aiki forums being locked off over at www.bkjassn.com when I introduced myself to Mr. Mclean and informed him of my long term research into British Aikido and the people who trained with Abbe Kenshiro in those pioneering days of the 50's and 60's he was quite willing to issue me with a fairly detailed martial arts biography including dates, locations and names of some fairly well known Aikidoka of the day.

    As I attempted to validate Mr. McLean's Aikido history I was appalled to find that in each instance the information which came back to me indicated what McLean had provided to me personally and to a wider audience through the BJKA forums was, how shall I say... a load of old tosh.

    When I sent Mr. Mclean the information which had been provided to me and the contact email addresses for the sources of that information, including an enquiry I made on the BJKA forums about Mr. McLean allegedly teaching "Aikikai" aikido I found that thread removed by the administrators. I have a full transcript of that thread and, despite their Principal Instructor Who refers to himself as "Doshu", stating in another thread ... "Aiki Egos?" that "slanderous claims" had been made (referring to me) I found my last post on their forums censored/edited to suit their agenda then locked off...sadly pathetic but, as they say "The truth hurts"

    I live by a simple philosophy in matters relating to credibility, authenticity, legitimacy of grades, experience and lineage.

    "Simple questions need only simple answers"

    Anyone with the documentation which Mr. McLean claims to have (which includes a 7th dan Aikikai certificate) can quickly and conclusively silence the doubters however, when simple questions result in ultra defensive overly complicated answers it has been my experience the reason is all too obvious.

    Indeed just one piece of conclusive evidence which was promptly provided to me from the Aikikai Yudansha Secretary Mr. Tani stated, that; Mr. McLean was not a holder of ANY Aikikai certification and did not represent the Aikikai in any capacity, was dismissed by McLean.

    Perhaps before mounting such an ambitious endeavor in the opening of a dojo named the "Butokukai" Mr. McLean should endeavor to be honest with the very community he hopes his dojo will serve and stop claiming association/affiliation/representation/certification which has been substantiated as untrue.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2005
  6. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Having read Dave's detailed exposition on this it seems that we have yet another example here of claims which are easily disproved - why don't these people recognise that Aikido is a young martial art and it is very easy to prove and disprove a lineage.

    For example, my Sensei was Eddie Stratton. His teacher was Gozo Shioda, one of O Sensei's principal students and the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido. That puts two people between me and the Founder - pretty easy to write, and to provide documentary evidence.

    Let's see what hard evidence backs up these claims.. I for one will not be happy to recommend any dojo or Sensei linked to anything fraudulent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2005
  7. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Lest I say, I have 16 pages of information in relation to Mr. McLean. I don't think it appropriate to present that on an open forum such as this. What I will confirm however; is that I've been in contact with six independent sources that in turn provided me with information casting IMHO fairly conclusive rebuttals over the claims which Mr. McLean freely gave to me.

    I'm not on a witch hunt nor have I intentionally set out to assassinate Mr. McLean's character; I've not accused Mr. McLean of anything, I’ve merely presented to him the information and the sources therein provided to me.

    Naturally I've formulated my own opinion based on that information and, as stated to Mr. Mclean directly in my communications with him, if I'm wrong I will apologise, my instincts based on the information to hand however say otherwise. - If Mr. McLean or his associates wish to prove me wrong and thereby receive a written apology, I am more than willing to see the evidence.

    Kind regards
     
  8. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    In all honesty if I were asked to prove my linage the most effort I would put into it would be to say who my teacher is, who his teacher was and so on back to O Sensei. Even as a member of a now independant organisation I can still provide that limited information. If other people want to go looking for documentation, that's upto them to do the leg work.

    Reading about these things seriousley makes me want to chuck in the towel. I'm so sick of this crap.
     
  9. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Indeed.. crap it is.

    Where I have a problem is that (and only speaking as an individual) I haven't invested almost 20 years of my time learning a martial discipline to see it trashed by people who are willing to spout BS.

    I admit I am my own worst enemy when it comes to issues such as these because my tenacity takes over and I simply can't let go when I see people BS'ing others. Its been detrimental to me before and I have no doubt it will be again in the future, that said I live by the strength of my convictions, I will admit when I'm wrong and staunchly stand my ground when I know I'm right. Many people see this attitude as maverick and in turn threatening.

    In relation to "looking for documentation" The big difference between you and others who might otherwise embellish and distort their lineage/accreditation is honesty. Anyone legitimately in possession of documentation (from any source) have nothing to hide in that respect, if in the unlikely event that someone such as me (for instance) were to ask for verification of your grades/affiliations/lineage, these questions can be very quickly answered/silenced simply because those documents exist. The fact of the matter is in my experience/opinion; 99% of those people with legitimate grades etc simply don't draw the sort of negative attention to themselves which create the environment where people actually begin to question.

    Regards
     
  10. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin Valued Member

    tight scheds..that's all I can say...
     
  11. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    I'd be inclined to either agree or disagree if I actually knew what "tight scheds" meant ?
     
  12. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    I asked about a new dojo I'd picked up on the net, out of curiosity.

    Dave informs us that there are questions which need to be asked by anyone who wishes to join this new dojo, and I for one am pleased to take that advice on board.

    Is there anyone on MAP who can answer the points he makes? If not, then Dave has still done a public service by raising awareness - it's then up to each individual who does business with this association to assure themselves that everything is OK.

    We've all been guilty of going OTT when we see our art debased by McDojo Gods and Soke's. For once this is a very controlled and gentle exploration - so thanks to Dave for raising the issues with such diplomacy. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2005
  13. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    People like these make me question the providence of Aikido philosophy - even though I don't fully subscribe to the whole notion of Ueshiba O-Sensei's beliefs, I do empathise with the general principles yet, when I come into contact with people who attempt to BS me my tenacity kicks in and I find myself in a position where I feel compelled to discover the truth and I wonder if these people ever actually understood anything about Budo, never mind Aikido ?

    I've already had a great email from one of Mr. McLean's students making all manor of threats and insults; truly pathetic.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2005
  14. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    My certificates are signed by Mitsugi Saotome and two dan-rank instructors under him. Does that count? I hung one of them on the wall at my office even.
    :D
     
  15. AikiBudo

    AikiBudo Valued Member

    Unfortunately I have learned the hard way it isn't who signs your certificates that is important, it is that you appreciate who signs them. If you have to invent or embellish you history then something is wrong. I happen to know the person involved in this and there is really NO reason that he has had to to create a martial arts history. He had trained with some of the best and is/was a fine MA. Sad to say he has felt the need to let his words and ego defeat him rather than standing by his actions on the mat. I am very saddened by this and also just a little ****ed off. There are knuckleheads everywhere, but in this case Mr. McLean should have known better.

    I wish I could be there for the Dojo opening. I am sure I will be well represented.

    is that a Professional Wrestler??? :woo:
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2005
  16. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    My Sensei had his Dan gradings from Shioda in Japan signed by O Sensei himself, as was the practice at the time. I found them one day on the floor of his lounge, by the fireplace, and asked him why they weren't on the walls of the dojo.

    His answer was that they were just bits of paper, and that all that mattered was in the Aikido which he kept in his head and his heart and transmitted to his students. As Dave said, those with a real lineage have no need to brag.

    As soon as 'false prophets' appear, MAP members will 'out' them sooner or later!!

    As one example, I have known a 1st Dan student who, having been thrown out of his own association, has set up as 5th Dan instructor elsewhere - scary! :)

    It would seem that we are discovering that, in addition to those who fraudulently invent their whole MA creds, there are those who simply embellish them. Let's hope a bit more humility and honesty prevails.

    My own grade of 6th Dan is as legitimate as the British Royal Family. ;)

    Seriously, though, I support where Dave is coming from - any claim is open to question. If questioned, is there evidence to support the initial claim? If there is a refusal to provide it, we may assume fraud, timidity or arrogance, none of which chime with the Aikido to which I subscribe. This leads me to conclude that unless there is POSITIVE evidence, assume that this dojo should be approached with zanshin and caution.

    P.S. I don't know any wrestlers as ugly as Camilla - cross bred with a turnip!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2005
  17. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Well here you go Mac, lets use your example (all be it you posted a bit tongue in cheek)

    If I were to ask you to verify your claims, I'm sure that would be very easy..

    Firstly you'd have the certification to back up your statements; this would silence the doubters very quickly

    Secondly If I were to write to Saotome Sensei for verification I'm sure (with due reason of course) he'd confirm the legitimacy of your certificates.

    The thing is of course you're not making statements which draw attention to yourself (and the questions that might arise thereafter)

    Additionally, using you as an example, your certification is from Saotome Sensei, if you were claiming your certification was issued from the Aikikai that might at best an ambiguous statement (based of the fact that Saotome Sensei is an Aikikai Shihan) and at worst, an intentional lie for the purposes of misleading someone.

    Two words spring to mind instantly ... Honesty and ... Integrity

    The problem is one of self gratification and one-up-manship; some people are simply not satisfied with what they have. I'd rather be a dammed good kyu grade than a pish poor dan grade.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2005
  18. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Indeed.

    My own personal opinion is this.

    If a person wants to write his dan grade at the end of his name by way of overtly advertising what level they hold, I feel that person must ultimately be prepared to substantiate that qualification if asked. Now I'm not talking of being at the mercy of every idiot who "demands" to see a person's documentation, I am of course speaking about justifiable reasons for wanting to quantify the providence of a person's grade.

    Those who really hold the certification they claim are generally open and co-operative (within the bounds and reasons of the request) It has been my direct experience with people who have been exposed as untruthful about themselves, their reaction to legitimate questioning is brash, defensive and overly complicated in nature. That says to me this person has something now to hide.

    McSensei rely on the ignorance or gullibility of their audience. When challenged the pattern of behaviour is fairly predictable.

    Regards
     
  19. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    He damn well better! Someone at either his Washington, DC headquarters or his Sarasota, Florida home better have records of me. Additionally, I know for certain that my local dojo keeps records of exams. I know my name is in their record books, and I know that the names of my instructors are in their record books. Those instructors could be cross-checked against Saotome's records, for they have been tested by Saotome himself, whereas I have not been tested by Saotome himself. If my instructors are legitimate, then we can assume that my rank from them is legitimate.

    Incidentally, they are ranked 6th dan, 5th dan, and two at 4th dan. The 6th dan instructor is the chief instructor, of course. He has authority from Saotome to grant rank up to 2nd dan without consulting Saotome. This is how I received all of my kyu certificates. Grades of third dan and higher must be issued either by Saotome personally or by his successor, Ikeda, personally. Ikeda lives in Boulder, Colorado.


    Correct. That is exactly why I claim to have rank from Saotome, rather than from the Aikikai.

    Of course, as you pointed out, the Aikikai honors Saotome's work and Saotome's legitimacy as a shihan. That's always a good thing. ;)
     
  20. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Now we have the crux of a point made to Mr. McLean.

    If a person takes a Yudansha grade through an appointed Hombu Shihan then one can expect to get certification which is signed (and ultimately issued) from the Doshu of the day, thus; it is an Aikikai grade. However; if this same person had taken a Yudansha examination under an instructor who had since left the Aikikai to form his own organisation (In this case we are talking of Noro Sensei and his Ki no Michi organisation)... The certification you would receive would not be from the Doshu and thus NOT an Aikikai recognised grade.

    It would be an incorrect assumption (if it was assumption) that because Noro Sensei had himself been a student of the founder; any grades Noro Sensei issued *after leaving* the Aikikai would have anything to do with the founder, or the Doshu of the time. Of course to the unsuspecting, having a grade from the likes of Noro Sensei could easily be portrayed as Aikikai recognised. Unfortunately, from communication with current and past members of Mr. McLean's Aikido section it does if fact seem apparent that this is exactly the 'image' that Mr. McLean was protraying to at least some of his students. This of course brings me neatly back to my point about honesty and integrity.

    Lets be clear on this important point : The Aikikai have already informed us that Mr. McLean neither represents or holds any Aikikai certification.

    To quote Dr. Peter Goldsbury (IAF Chairman) in one of his emails to me recently..
    I think that speaks volumes in general about many groups of Aikido here in the UK and not just relating to Mr. McLean.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2005
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