Stick fighting

Hi everyone... I'm self trained in JKD, read a lot of books and watched a lot of Bruce's films. I have trained in clubs and stuff but mostly just learnt from books and from watching other people.

Anyway, I found this cool site and thought I'd share some of my experiences with you.

By chance, I met an amazing martial artist the other day. He was a Kali fighter, I think that’s the same thing as Escrima. As it turns out he was a very deceptive opponent and could manipulate the situation to his advantage very easily, not someone I would like to face for real. His movement wasn't unusual but he would change his timing and his style and I couldn't see it happening or even feel very much. I asked him how he had come to have such a deceptive and manipulative style and he told me that it took a long time to learn and wasn't prepared to give me all his secrets but that he could explain it metaphorically with the movement of the sticks.

So, he showed me some Kali stick work. I've done a crash course in Dolce Pares myself so I can twirl the sticks but, when I practice, I crash the sticks about and spin them all over the place, pretending to be Bruce Lee and doing all those wailing cat noises, this guys movement was amazing. The sticks seemed to flow perfectly through the air, really beautiful - his body movement was very subtle and could combine some incredible footwork. I was very impressed.

He explained that even though the movement looked beautiful it was actually sword work, even through the fast movement, your hands are positioned in such a way that the blades are cutting with every stroke. At the end of our session I tried to do some work with him, I would have preferred something more friendlily but he had become quite aggressive. As I said, his movement was really deceptive but, in this case, it was ok. I just watched him and felt his movement – I was really happy at this point that I’d practiced my entry so many times. Then I entered with a really quick right hand lead and my hand stopped about a millimeter from his nose, he'd already seen me hit the wall pad so he knew that I probably would have knocked his head off but he just said 'oh'. I didn't understand immediately how he was able to be so deceptive but I didn't like training with him. I don't like this approach, anyway it's stupid I could have knocked this guy out in about 2 seconds flat, really. Kali sticks, fancy moves and swords? P-leeease!

He said that he would show me metaphorically with the sticks but I didn’t get it. From all I could see he just showed me the same thing, anyway but that’s an analogy, isn’t it? I always get confused. I wouldn’t like to fight someone like that if I couldn’t get through with some punches quickly but he wasn’t able to stop my lead so, at the end, obviously I was impressed, but I felt indifferent about the exchange.

Imperial Dragon

 

You learn everything from books and movies? ;(

 

Yes, nearly everything I know.

 

I'm not certain what the point of you post is as the post is self contradictory, are you saying that the escrimador had good skills and you were impressed, or that you didn't think he was that good as you almost hit him in the face ?

What were you doing when you did your entry on him, was it in sparring or were you in a drill, was he trying to demonstrate something to you at the time ?

 

Hi Neil,

Sorry bout that, I thought it made sense when I wrote it but I can understand what you mean.

LOL Escrimidor, is that what they're called? Sounds like a bull fighter Still laughing, I can't help imagining this guy wearing those silly trousers and holding up a red hankey now... last time I play with a Kali man, I mean Escrimidor. That's going to keep me amused all day!

We were sparring, I didn't want to go into all the details because what I'm trying to find out is what he meant. How does the metaphor/analogy of the sticks explain his style? I know that is had something to do with the blades and the fact that you can't see them because he uses sticks and that his hand positioning has been very well trained. But I don't know what it means.

I was impressed by the art, by the movement and by his style. It looks so graceful and flows really beautifully. I really like martial arts from this perspective you know, all that Matrix and Flying Daggers stuff is cool but when you watch a good Paqua man walk the circle or in this case the guy twirling the sticks it's something much more special.

What didn't impress me was that 1. his attitude seemed aggressive at the end and that 2. I could wipe the floor with all that fancy stuff with a simple lead. But it didn't really suprise me. I think this is what some of those old masters might call flower punches and embroiderary kicks.

 

I might have an explanation. A stick is pretty forgiving when you twirl it around. If you have strong arms and wrists you can twirl it pretty fast. However one of the most common beginner errors you see with sticks is not lining it up properly. Imagine doing a backhand slash, there is an edge on your stick, to be effective your knuckles should be pointing towards your opponent. It is possible to do this movement with the back of your hand towards your opponent. I find a lot of beginners have a tendency to do this as it can be done quite quickly. Unfortunately it is not a good habit.

 

Though "stick fighting" may be one of the methods taught in JKD, perhaps this thread might be better posted in the FMA section? Just a thought

 

Probably partly my fault, the first coffee of the day hadn't really kicked in when I read the post

That is the proper term, or arnisador can be used as well, as for the clothing, a traditional outfit for some includes a sarong and waist coat, not as silly as a matador outfit, but not far off

How long has this guy been training, as it sounds to me as if he really didn't explain to well what he meant, nearly all FMA empty hand stuff is based around the knife, what he means by his hand positioning is that if he had a knife the blade would be in the same orientation as his knuckles, so every strike he makes he is really 'cutting' you, and that training with the knife / stick / sword teaches good body mechanics and hand psitioning, there is a thread in the FMA forum on the value of hubud that explains the weapon - empty hand transition in more detail

It can be very impressive, and it looks stunning when done at speed with say a pair of barong, especially if there all nice and shiny, but don't mistake a stick twirler for a stick fighter, teacher makes the same point

Maybe he had a bad day at work, or it could be that is how he spars, I've known several people get very aggresive during sparring, many people don't seem to understand that its another form of training, not a fight, but a certain amount of agression is neededall the same. I find it difficult to spar with FMA empty hands, so I normally drop back to boxing / muay thai, as many filipino techniques, as in silat, are dangerous if performed properly, in the FMA I'd use arm and leg destructions, break fingers, stamp on feet, jam my thumbs in the back of the eye sockets, rip on muscle groups etc etc, so when you can't do that it makes it all seem a bit weak, as for beating it with a simple lead, Bruce Lee himself said a simple punch executed at close enough range is impossible to block, but this doesn't explain why he had no guard or intercept ready, maybe he just wasn't very good at the empty hands bit, in most styles its not taught fully till fairly late on in your development, many people train for years and don't really get it, I know I had a light bulb moment when it all sort of came together

Hope thats explained a bit more

Neil

 

Hi Neil,

Thanks you did clear some things up for me. I was really impressed when I saw how much control he had over his hand positioning, especially at such high speed. I guess this comes with a lot of practice.

What still isn't clear though is his explanation. He said that the explanation of his deception and manipulation could be found in the movement of this sticks. From everything I saw I can only guess he's trying to say that it's because the angle of the blade is hidden. That would suggest that the elements I am trying to find are hidden, which doesn't make his demonstration very useful?

He said that he had been training for about 5 years but I think he had some other styles as well. He'd certainly done some brazilian ju-jitsu. I really like the weapons stuff, some of the guys I've seen tend to do a lot of (I guess there's probably a term for this but can't think what) hitting your joints and muscles in your arms. When fighting with weapons I think this is probably helpful but, having seen it demonstrated with empty hands, seems just a waste of time. Is that something that's normally covered?

Sure, I agree. I've met a lot of people who can do all kinds of fancy tricks and stuff but can't actually really do anything with it. Not a great deal of high quality teachers out there I don't think.

Yes sparring is a problem. I'm quite a passive person but also find it very difficult to exchange without getting a little rough sometimes, it's a shame. Perhaps we should all learn to harness the force and practice surrounded by energy fields

Juego, sorry. I only posted it here because I practice JKD, I'll bear it in mind for the future.

 

It's Doce Pares mate. "Twelve Pairs" Not Dolce Pares. What is that... "Sweet Pairs"?

 

In retrospect, I apologise in advance for any further spelling mistakes or grammatical errors.

 

It's fine. It's just much easier to convince people that you've researched something if you can spell its name properly.

Yes, the people who practice kali, arnis, or eskrima are known as eskrimadors or arnisadors. In Spanish, the suffix "dor" just means "someone who does this thing." So an eskrimador does eskrima (which derives from the Spanish word for fencing, "esgrima" so that an esgrimador is a fencer).

A matador (bullfighter) comes from the word "matar" (to kill). So a matador is literally a killer.

As for the actual question, the stick and knife movements of kali convey in concept down to the empty hand. But the actual translation process is tricky, I think. Someone could misunderstand that concept and just windmill his arms in a sinawali pattern the way he would with two sticks. That person wouldn't really be applying the principle properly.

Have a look at this link (which I'm sure is going to get passed around this forum like baby pictures at a high school reunion): http://dogbrothers.com/videoclips/kalitudo.wmv

And thinking you could have taken this guy's head off because you got through with a straight punch is a dangerous assumption. One-hit knockouts are like hitting the lottery.


Stuart

 

How can an assumption be dangerous? Also, the chances of winning the lottery are approximately 1 in 14 million.



Thanks, that's a really cool video.

 

And how many one-hit knockouts have you ever 1) dished out, 2) taken, or 3) witnessed?

Assumption is dangerous because then we neglect to train for what happens if things don't go the way we anticipate. What would have happened if you'd tagged him in the face and rolled with it and came back at you? Maybe he wouldn't have done that. But maybe the next guy will. What happens if you're used to the idea that scoring that hit would have meant the end of the fight?


Stuart

 

I've been knocked out twice and knocked someone out three times. Witnessed live five and on TV a few times.

As we were picking at straws, an assumption that has already been made without any consiquence holds no danger what-so-ever. How can it? My guess is that if I'd hit him, from that position, the fight would have ended there and then. As you're asking, I think I would have knocked him out. If he'd come back at me I and it continued? Who knows, too many variables to contemplate.

If you make the assumption that you can always win a fight with a single entry then you are stupid it doesn't really mean anything in a real exchange though arrogance or overconfidence can be blinding but it's not necassarily the same thing.

 

1. get yourself to a class, it's a lot better than books.

2. the FMA order goes by time period. 1st was Kali, then arnis and now escrima.

3. apparently the guy wasn't as good as he looked. a good FMA fighter is damn near unbeatable. he has good work while standing, in clinch and on the ground. try your skill against a couple of Guros and things will be very different.

Mullins

 

Fair enough. I wasn't there. So it makes sense to take your word for it.

 

If I was you I would challenge him to a little sparring but make it clear that you will be aiming to punch him in the face etc and lets just see what happens, I am not a betting man but in this instance I will bet you even a novice in the FMA's like myself will be able to break your knuckles, cause damage to your head, elbows, knees...........the list goes on, I don't think you have experienced FMA's yet.

 

If a fighter is better than you, and there aren't too many unusual circumstances, there's a fair chance they will beat you. Style irrelevant. You could say the same thing about most styles.

Really? What, absolutely definately? How do you know?

Ooook So, you're asking me to spar with the same guy again.

This is the guy who I sparred with already, got through clearly with a punch to the head, and he had nothing either there to stop it or anything he could move fast enough to get there. I controlled my distance, I would have hit him (just to clarify).

...You want me to spar with him again and say "I'm going to punch you in the face" and see what he does? Is that how you spar?

We did it once already and he clearly didn't. When you fight or spar the possibilities are endless (unless you take it step by step and tell each other exactly what you're going to do), you may well be able to do all those things to me and I may well be able to do all those things to you.

Are you saying that filipino martial arts are the highest ranking in the world? Unbeatable? Your comments seem to suggest so.

 

ha,ha,ha...you really cheer me up when I have had a lousy day, what I meant was before sparring say to him "dont hold back with your crap FMA because that is what it is...crap, I am going to kick your butt with all the fancy stuff that I have learnt from the movies, defend against the onslaught if you can" then at least he knows that you mean business.

Not in the slightest, just because I train in Kali does not mean that I am a great authority on it or even any good at it and just because I train in it Idoes not in my opinion make it the best martial art ever, I also train in JKD and Silat and until recently was training in WKA full contact kickboxing and I have also trained in Wado Ryu karate. Lau Gar Kung Fu, Thai Boxing and a couple of not so good kickboxing systems, Wado Ryu, Lau Gar, San Shou to me were not very good, JKD, Fma's and Silat are arts that I wish that I had discovered much earlier, so since 1980 I have seen quite a few martial arts of varying effectiveness and to me the FMA are very good. Incidentally all the guys at our club are good and I would expect to get wasted if I tried to punch one of them.