Or are they the work of Satan? I just dont get it. In fact I hate it. Let's take an instructive device which requires deep study and teaches basic principles, and turn it into empty glamour for transitory trophies. What? I understand the agility, the athleticism and the dedication involved in putting one together and performing it, but it's an athleticism that might as well have been developed in any sport because it is utterly unrelated to martial arts both in terms of the principles of movement and the applications involved. Am I just an old, grumpy man who's had a long day? Or are they a denigration of everything we should hold dear? Mitch
I don't like 'em either, but unless it interferes with my own training (i.e., my instructor is spending time on that instead of something else), why should I care if others find them fun? I mean, do competitive basketball players get angry about the Harlem Globetrotters?
If it is to be proven that the sole reason for your dislike of musical patterns is that you are old and grumpy......then I suppose that would be reason enough for my dislike of them as well......but I think we have to go deeper than that. I also respect the athleticism, the preparation, and all of the components that go into such presentations.......but I'd rather they be displayed in a setting all unto their own, separate and distinct from the more traditional display of said. I won't begin to question the motives of those who choreograph or perform them, but perhaps there is a marketing angle to some of it???? You are not alone in your fear........I suspect denigration as well.
Hello, Satan here. I've possessed Moosey for a couple of minutes because I just had to post on MAP and the Wi-Fi connections in hell are terrible. I know there's been some discussion over the years and I wanted to clarify that, yes, I did invent musical kata. At first it was just a joke - like St Vitus' dance and all that - intended to make some Americans look silly in revenge for their general religious piousness. But they seem to have taken it all very seriously. I had nothing to do with fluorescent bo staffs or nunchaku with tassles on the end though. They did that all by themselves. Laterz y'all, D.
Mitch, you're just a grumpy old man. Anyone want to pop round and watch me practice with my hammer, chisel and junior hacksaw all set to music? Actually musical forms were invented by the noted Shihan Morecambe and Kyoshi Wise back in the 70's. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFgdhZGLJrY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFgdhZGLJrY[/ame] Its about as martial as any musical form I've seen. Mike
I must have seen that clip dozens of time and it still makes me laugh Mitch, less grumpy by the minute
Ugh! I guess I too fall in to the grumpy old man camp. Its one more step over the cliff of ripping apart our art. But hey folks say it keeps the young kids interested and for many thats the most important thing : O Dave O.
Maybe if people put as much work into traditional forms as they did creative/musical forms the traditional arts would be of a higher standard. I dont nor ever have seen the point in creative/musical forms. Most creative forms hide bad rechnique with flashy stuff. Cloe bruce for example may be flexible but her forms are littered with poor kicking technique, Same for Nikki Berwick although if you look closely you can see most of Nikki Berwicks routines in Chloe bruce's ( hmm is she copying them hoping the audience cant remeber who Nikki Berwick was?) Basicaly i hate em. and always will.
No prizes for guessing who it is self consciously shuffling from one foot to the other at a wedding. Mr "no rythm" Mitch that's who. PS...I'm with you all the way Mitch. Musical patterns take somethikng pure, simple and special and mess it up.
Ha! That's where you're sooooooo wrong! I hop from one foot, to the same foot, both self consciously and out of time with the music Mitch
Fricken hilarious... However I must say Americans are not the sole ones who love musical kata (note the Chloe Bruce reference above). I dislike them, but I found they were very, very, popular in Korea and China. I've been to Korea three times (China once) and almost every martial arts demonstration I got to watch had musical kata in it. They absolutely love it. I think they even did musical kata when hosting stuff like K-1. And usually they don't have just one person doing it, but a group all synchronized. And they even had some pretty creative stuff like four people jumping up and doing spinning hook kicks like rising notes where each peaked slightly after the other. That did impress me. According to one group they had been working on their routine specifically for us our visit. What do you do when someone tells you that? You clap and smile vigorously while gritting your teeth...but I also appreciated the sheer athleticism of some of it. Of course I must say, Satan, that many of the Koreans are very very religious as well. So it makes sense you would punish them along with we Americans.
Musical patterns...isn't that basically ALL that modern wushu is? (Like most people, I think wushu and sanshou are two separate sports). And you can't blame that on religion, because we all know that those Chinese are godless commies
Yeah ive got a quite old American magazine and Jhoon Rhee is the first i heard of music combined with forms.. In said mag a place getter at Cali. tourny opened his Kata routine with music, rising from a coffin then broke into kata..... Wish i had that on tape to share
I don't really have a problem with musical forms in a demonstration setting, since they are designed to capture peoples' attention and show off the Hollywood aspect of Taekwondo. I have a serious problem with said forms in a tournament setting. These forms are supposed to show balance, power, concentration etc. Very hard to do with music playing. Music would, in fact, make such forms seem trite and denigrated to the level of dance.
As long as musical patterns exist point sparring will never be at the bottom of the barrel. For that reason I am grateful. Van "Point Fighter" Zandt
to be fair the practitioners who I have seen do musical patterns in person were quite good and it is a privilege to work out with them/meet them. As usual for human beings we (myself included) like to focus on the slight differences rather than what we have in common. I mean 95 percent of the training could be identical, but we martial artists are going to rail about, "Man those guys waste their time on _______. I don't like THAT!!!" Human nature...
