Throws & Grappling in Kuk Sool

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Pugil, Sep 23, 2009.

  1. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    I do!:cool:
     
  2. KSstudent

    KSstudent Valued Member

    shake it off and keep fighting ,,er posting !
     
  3. ember

    ember Valued Member

    I had hoped perhaps we might get some other perspectives on the technique sets I mentioned, and keep this relevant to the Kuk Sool forum (as opposed to a BJJ discussion). I don't mind people mentioning similarities in other arts, but I would hope that the discussion gets applied back to how a Kuksoolin might apply those lessons to the techniques we have.

    I have seen kuksoolin rolling around on the mats. I hadn't gotten to try it yet. We were advised that it's a situation where "two newbies together is one newbie too many," so I'm sticking to straight technique practice where that goes.

    I do think, if taught/applied correctly, the techniques we learn in kuk sool can be useful in grappling. It's just that KSW has other priorities.
     
  4. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Pugil don't go!

    I agree you have a weath of knowledge and you shouldn't stop posting because you feel you've been flamed. Having said that I'm going to throw some things back at you feel free to respond in any manner you wish. I don't dislike you, how could I. I don't even know you, who knows we probably would hit it off well and throw back some brews at the local pub.


    If It looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  5. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    I've never been denied an answer to any question about techniques in KSW, or not taught what was in the syllabus at the level belt I was. Whats the rush anyway? It is a systematic study of MAs. Is it not?

    I just wanted to make sure you were indeed knocking KSW for not having grappling techniques, when you know that it does. Just because there's not alot of ground fighting doesn't mean that it's not grappling.


    Says you.


    You missed my point. I was pointing out that Japanese JJs techniques were originally more similar to KSW. They were used by the samurai for empty hand combat designed to kill or mame your attacker as quickly as possible. Which is why they had to be "watered down" (NOTE: In no way do I use this term to say that what is taught today is not effective) in order to be used in sport competition. The original JJ was developed way before any of the arts we've been discussing here.

    Is this your opinion or do you have facts to back this up. Because I disagree with this statement. I would agree that competition is a great tool to help one understand techniques. So is diligent training and a good instructor who know how to make the techniques effective.

    Oh yea the bold text, just everytime you've slagged KSW and/or the people who practice it.

    Regards
     
  6. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    First off, thanks for those who urged me to stay with their very kind words. I really do appreciate it.

    Pressure-testing, by its very nature, introduces an element of stress that is absent from the normal training environment. Usually, when you practice your techniques, your partner is compliant - what Japanese martial artists call Uke. That person is, in effect, being your 'dummy', and they allow you to perform the technique(s), rather than a) resist and/or b) try to apply some other technique on you at the same time.
     
  7. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I hope you stick around Pugil and post whatever you wish. You may have "only" gotten up to 3rd dahn in KSW but you studied many other arts and have 35+ years in the MA. Bruce is another poster here who seems to have years and years of experience.

    I find irony in that a poster can show such disrespect to a person of your experience and then turn around in another thread and chide another poster of being disrespectful to a person with MA seniority!
     
  8. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Ditto!

    Well Michelle let me explain, I fully acknowledge Pugils experience in the MAs. I happen to outrank him in KSW so in regards to any information he may want to lend on that subject I may know a little more. Overall I'm sure he has more experience than I in general MA knowledge. If in defending KSW, more importantly its practitioners, it seems like I'm being disrespectful, well thats a case of POV. Who was disrespectful first? When you and others say things like "kool aid" drinkers, blinders on, .... you are not only insulting WKSA you are insulting all the members as well. Just because we choose to study KSW with its founder doesn't mean we are not free thinking individuals. If no one else is willing to stick up for KSW practitioners I certainly will.
     
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    GOSH!!

    If it weren't for all the irony & sarcasm, I probably wouldn't bother to participate in MAP anymore. :rolleyes:




    Hey, Pugil. Let's ditch this unruly crowd and head for the nearest pub. Whaddya say? :cool:
     
  10. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    That is funny. WKSA is just an organization and to humanize it and make it all-encompassing such that a criticism of WKSA, the organization, is regarded as an insult to PEOPLE is ridiculous.

    But why does that not surprise me? After all, it is supposedly an all-encompassing MA and so everyone should take any and all criticisms about WKSA to heart and be insulted to the core! :rolleyes:

    Lets not play that unless you believe it. Know that if you are insulting me, you are insulting ALL women; therefore you must hate all women.:rolleyes:
     
  11. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Just my 2ยข...

    Before anyone gets around to pointing any fingers at me, be advised that while it might appear that I'm bigoted, I'm not.

    I HATE EVERYONE EQUALLY! :banana: :jester: :D
     
  12. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    And since I have only half the natural hate in my heart that you do...I must strive to double my efforts. :)
     
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :topic: OFF-TOPIC :topic:

    You must be a momma, then, Michelle. Something about motherhood that may limit how much a woman can embrace hatred, whereas it seems like a childless woman can be quite the shrew with little difficulty. :dunno:


    Hopefully that statement doesn't paint me as a male chauvinist.
     
  14. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Thanks Pugil,

    I agree, What I do with my students is to have their partner resist the technique they are applying and they then have to change direction and apply a new technique. So for instance If student "A" is applying KBS #1, student "B" resists, then student "A" can change to KBS #2. This is very basic of course but easily understood by a beggining student. The exercise is designed to get the student used to resistance and instill the theory of "You Won Hwa". As the student progresses then I change the drill and let them use what ever technique they choose as a counter. KBS is a good set of techniques to introduce this concept because the direction of the techniques alter from right to left and you can go from one to the next in proper order which helps the beggining student remember the techniques. Thats just what I do to start. Maybe you have other ways you could help me expand on this? Thoughts?
     
  15. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Harmonise & Flow

    When learning and trying to master techniques, it's not just about your training partner providing you with resistance. In fact, to do so usually results in a poor execution of the technique anyway, as it ends up as being based on it being applied by strength - rather than using the energy that your partner provides you with. I'm sorry, I realise that may sound a contradiction. I need to be in the same room as you really.

    In training, I often like to incorporate a drill from the Filipino martial arts when demonstrating the practise of dynamic locking. It's called Hu Bud (or Hu Bad). The drill allows students to develop sensitivity and feel, and I often require that one of them practises with their eyes shut for several seconds, and then ask the other to do likewise. Eventually, they can both practise with their eyes closed. Many Kuk Sool techniques can and should be practised with closed eyes too, so that students do not rely on what they can see.

    The basics of Hu Bud can easily be learnt, although it's better to be shown the principles and theory of what you are doing by someone who is familiar with the exercise, rather than try to copy it off a YouTube video (for example) and end up misunderstanding what's going on, and what the purpose of it is. To be honest, a lot of the clips are not really that good at explaining that, so I will post one of my own, which I hope will provide you with some ideas to go away and play with:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XASCNrmmKQI"]YouTube - Hubad Short Lock Flow Drill[/ame]
     
  16. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Here's another clip showing Hubad (YouTube replaced my chosen music by the way):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gge-wZUJ2U"]YouTube - Hubad into Takedown & Locking[/ame]

    If you look at the written info, it says: "Hubad is a close-quarter training exercise used in the Filipino Martial Arts. Having said that, it can also be used as a valuable 'tool' for training close-quarter skills in just about any system of martial arts around..." and I really do believe that. You can practise Judo throws, Ki Bon Soo, etc., from it.

    The slapping that you see is not quite that. The right hand is the attacking hand, on this occasion, and the left is defending against it. If the left hand fails to respond to the right hand coming in, the neck is grabbed, or hit, as you can see at the start of the clip. Later, we incorporate other types of strikes, and alter the distance between us slightly to allow for that. We also includes changes from right to left side so that both hands attack and defend equally.

    Please don't misunderstand, however, as the entry into conclusive and decisive action would occur in the first sequence. We only go back and forth, and repeat the drill together to train it to the point where it becomes an automatic reflex action. Much in the same way that someone in a car will automatically hit the brake pedal if someone steps out in front of their car.
     
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Rank

    Just to clarify this point: This is not in any way meant to be contentious, or pedantic, but you don't and can't 'outrank' someone who is no longer [directly] involved in the art. Unless of course you mean that during my involvement in Kuk Sool you outranked me? I was under a Kuk Sool Master M.Y. Kim from 1973 - 1986 and got my 1st degree on 10 Nov 1977, and then I was with the WKSA from 1986 - 1989 and was awarded my 3rd degree on 24 Sept 1989.

    My WKSA certificates are numbered K-6041, in case you want to check.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  18. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Yes, our good old friend, Father Time.

    Sorta like it's only illegal to commit *simultaneous* polygamy, not *sequential* polygamy (i.e. you can marry as many people as you want, provided you get a divorce before remarrying ;) ).

    Unless he outranked you while you were both in the same association, it doesn't mean much if he outranks you now (the caveat being about knowledge pertaining to *privileged info* not given to lower ranks). FWIW, there's not much NEW material taught after 3rd dahn, so Pugil stands on fairly stable soil WRT anything he might say concerning fighting principles taught in KSW. :cool:
     
  19. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Perhaps he thinks he is General Douglas MacArthur?

    George Washington died a 3-star general in 1799. Along comes MacArthur who made 5-star general in 1944. MacArthur claimed that he outranked Washington!

    Then, in 1976, Congress "pimp slaps" this notion by posthumously making Washington the highest ranking general in US history (7-star), edging out 6-star Adm Dewey and Gen Pershing.
     
  20. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    your hubad exercise is very similar to an exercise i teach called 1 step techniques.
     

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