Maybe simply saying "etiquette" did not answer my question well enough. You have no interest in helping me so you can refrain from repeating yourself further. ---------- Well thanks Garth for being the first to offer any real light on the situation. I'm glad you have trained with both at different times... this is the same situation as myself. I understand what you're saying but I'm afraid I would have to disagree with some of the premises. For example I don't find having more than one teacher in something "disrespectful". I don't know if any senior instructor in any martial art would be so insecure as to find you training with other teachers as well "an insult". If they interpreted it that way I would be forced to seriously rethink my relationship with them anyway, exactly whose interests are being protected here? Maybe I train with both schools because of university for example, maybe it's because I can get an extra two days training in every week, maybe my girlfriend trains with one school and I like to be in class with her... for it to be assumed its because of some untrust would to me seem very paranoid and odd! Do you believe the issue at hand is that senior instructors want you to be dedicated to the school rather than the art? You see the standardised line I've received in the past is that it's for your own good because that way your teacher can make sure there are no conflicts in the training. I'll be honest, this did not seem to be me to ring true. If the input I was getting conflicted then I would be led to a natural decision in time, a decision any teacher in my life would be free to contribute his opinion to (say he saw this conflict before I did for example). If both sets of input allowed me to grow and I felt no conflict then why should anyone interfere? Am I an adult or am I a child? Am I to be trusted with choices about my own training or not? This is the point I feel myself returning to whenever I consider the situation. Is it not bad "etiquette" to treat grown men as children? Does anyone know of people who were kicked out for training with both schools? I know lots of people who have trained with both at different times so it can't be that unheard of.
Say you've been dating this girl for several years. You're in a happy, monogamous relationship. You're aware that she doesn't want you hooking up with any other girls. One day you meet another girl and you think, "Hmm, I wonder what this girl is like in bed. I'm going to try her out for awhile to see if I like her better than my current girlfriend." Or on the other end of the spectrum, how would you feel if your girlfriend came up to you and said, "Hey, I've also been dating this other guy for a few months and I just had a few questions. How come what he does in bed is so different from what you do in bed?" I'm sure you wouldn't take to that very well; just like an instructor from the Bujinkan would probably be annoyed if you, as his student, came to class saying, "Hm.. I learned this technique last week at my Genbukan school and he says we should be doing it this way. How come you're doing it differently? What makes your way better?" etc etc. I'm playing devil's advocate, as usual, because I feel a student should be able to train wherever they want. However, being that it's the same art being taught with a different perspective, I can see it becoming an issue with students all taking different paths to the same goal, at the same time.
Before I started my second koryu, I asked permission of my first school if I could train in the second, then when I recieved his permission and a letter from him, I went to the other school to ask their permission to join. I had the permission of both schools to train, before I did any training. It might sound like a round about way, but it was and is necessary to do this. The only thing I was told by both schools was not to train their kata with people outside their art and not to explain the kata to anyone who is not a member of the ryu. Without that letter and the permission I wouldn't have been able to join the other art, nor would I have been accepted in either school. Doing anything without permission in the martial arts world is generally a bad thing.
Sweeping aside everything you just said, I'm with garth on one main point, and you are missing this point and this point can really be one of the core reasons the Genbukan doesn't want you training in the bujinkan and vice versa. If I was your bujinkan instructor and you are performing a technique and you are doing it differently to the way I am doing it, and I ask you why and you tell me that it is the way the genbukan instructor is getting you to do it, then BAM thats it...I don't see the need to teach you anymore because what is the point of learning the same thing from two different people that will show it two different ways...we arenot talking about seminars here ...yeesh
Honestly I don't believe the way a technique is shown is the point in any context except maybe visual performance. The way I've always heard it said is "Hatsumi sensei will take you in one direction, and Tanemura will take you in another. It's just up to which way you want to go." All this pseudo-samurai honor and respect stuff is BS, in this case, from what I gather. Serious teachers, Hatsumi sensei included, regularly encourage learning from things other than themselves. That sometimes includes people. Note that there's a difference between "following" and learning from a given thing. EDIT: As a note, the question "Why does this group/person do this one way and this other group/person do it another way" has always been looked upon with a certain amount of joy in my experience. It shows the person is actively studying the strategy of it all on his own time, and is apparently serious about his training. All this "You were looking at another teacher?!" stuff is seriously reminding me more of the trailer park than the dojo.
Well even in the Genbukan it is not forbidden to study other arts. However, your study of ninpo is an entirely different manner. Dhalsim-On, if you are thinking about training between the two organizations and you don't see it as a big deal, then tell your current instructor. That'll give you your answer as to what happens.
Dhasim-on posted You may not but others will. I was once in Italy and a police car stopped to let me cross the road. I put my hand up to say thankyou and nearly got arrested. In Italy raising your hand is an insult. And this is it. What one oerson may find unoffensive can be offensive to others especially (so i'm told) when it comes to Japan. Now lets put some light on the cross traing thing. Someone once said to me taht we should have started off with Mr Tanemura to get the basics, moved to Stephen K Hayes to learn the western Combat techniques and then to Dr Hatsumi to learn the flow and henka. Now I dont know how truthful that is, but it does illustrate to a oint how different they are. Genbukan from my experience is very formal and the techniques are somewhat tense and rigid in fact in some ways similar to classical shotokan karate. (My apologies Genbukan members if you feel thi is not a good analogy, but its the best i can come up with) Whereas the Bujinkan style is less formal and more flowing in its techniques. Personally one might find one would have difficulty learning both to get the lesson. Devil Hanzo posted And the problem is? No seriously great analogy. Garth
Consequence. As far as I know both organisations have stated that you should not train with the other. You can choose to ignore this, but there maybe consequences. I believe that it is not technically illegal to have small quantities of heroin in Czech Republic, but if you are from Czech you should not assume the same rule applies in a transit lounge in Singapore. What I'm saying is that it doesn't really matter what your opinions on the subject are. The rules have been stated, I figure grown men should be able to deal with them.
I'm going to leave names anonymous here, some of you know whom I'm talking about, and those of you that don't will probably find out in due time. Last time I was in Japan, a certain instructor ("A") asked me the one time I participated in Honbu training if I had been training with another instructor ("B") who doesn't teach in Honbu. My answer was yes. Instructor A then asked me if a certain student of instructor B had told me to come there, to which I replied no, I came there of my own free will. Instructor A then told me not to go train with instructor B anymore. Now, if it had been known how much in the loop I actually am regarding this, something tells me that the consequences have been much more severe. As it stands, I've found that I get a lot more out of training with instructor B than with instructor A. Some may say that this is due to me being stupid and inexperienced - I don't know. All I know is where I prefer spending my time. Therefore, I'm henceforth going to honor the wishes of instructor A by not training with him (instructor A) anymore whilst training with instructor B. What's interesting though is that instructor C, who doesn't teach in Honbu either, doesn't have any problem whatsoever with instructor B, and vice versa.
HI Well I am sorry I didnt answer it enough for you. But to simply say its bad etiquette is enough. Maybe I should have also added its also regarded as bad manners, and down right ignorant and insultive towards your teacher. Is that enogh for you or shall I throw in a few more reasons why you should which will all come back to bad etiquette and bad manners. Your wrong again. i do have interest in helping you. Its just that you are refusing to accept the answers that are absolute fact. You want some one on here to say go ahead you have my permission. So far not one person has been prepared to do that for you and you obviously dont like. Put it this way. I have some very good friends in both the Genbukan and Jinenkan some at very high rank with in those orgs. Now if one of my students came to me and said he had been and attended a class in one of those orgs to see what it was like then I would not have a problem with it as long as that was the end of it. if they continued to visit that said dojo then i would have to put it straight to them, Your in the Bujinkan or your in that org, you have to make a choice you cant be in both. Like I keep saying and you keep ignoring Its bad etiquette and bad manners. Even more so for Bujinkan members to do so as the heads of the other X-kan were students of Hatsumi sensei and your almost saying that his students are better than him (quote from a shihan to me in Japan when we discussed this subject) Now accept the fact and the answers given to you :bang:
I think it's a fair assumption that, as a beginner, one doesn't know what Teacher #1's art is missing such that they should start training in Teacher #2's art. At the end of the day, choosing a teacher is a leap of faith. I would imagine that the best teachers would be happy if you found another teacher (or style) that you would prefer.
Well thanks for the decent replies... well apart from poryu. So when in Japan, I can see that the cross training would be interpreted in perhaps what could best be described as a culturally specific way. I still think it's silly but who am I change it? To be honest if I went to Japan, I would prefer to train in the Bujinkan anyway. Yet when I was training with both schools and being apparently naughty beyond belief I was doing so because half the year I trained G'kan and the other half of the year I trained B'kan. It was the only way for me to train properly at the time due to me travelling for Uni. I still don't think I did anything wrong and this is what I question... what use is a blanket rule? where is the sense? Circumstances dictate our choices. Kagete, your post intrigues me but I can't say I'm surprised. I have experienced the politics of various different martial arts schools at a local level as being bad enough. So much for brotherhood and live and let live!
Just a guess, and I'm just throwing this out there, but years ago of course these were not schools but clans. and one would probably not go and train in one clan who had political affiliations, and then go train with another clan that had political affiliations. I remember training in the genbukan once and Mr Tanemura saying that there really was no trust when one clan member trained with another and hense why even in bowing there is a certain amount of awareness as to your opponents actions all the time. Maybe this is why its still not a done thing to just go off hand and train with another instructor. Traditions die hard. Garth
PARANOIA!!! I couldnt find the paranoia scene (apart from dubbed in russian!) so have this one by way of an apology.. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyo-9WqOPoU&feature=PlayList&p=FE896470CAC80D51&index=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyo-9WqOPoU&feature=PlayList&p=FE896470CAC80D51&index=1[/ame]
whats wrong are you one of those people who doesnt like the truth. You already posted you dont like being told what to do. My reply was decent. 100% factual and truthful. You cant beat that.
How about a decent reply that's 100% factual and truthful, but also contains a picture of a hot chick?
All this peace, love and happiness between the Genbukan and Bujinkan students training in both organizations at the same time is a lot of crap. There are two Grandmasters in Japan that I would bet the farm you would not be welcome training with them if you told them you wanted to train in the others organization at the same time. The issues between those two some 26 years ago is not going away any time soon. If you are connected to either source you would know. Not saying its right or i agree with it, but its reality. I think the Jinenkan is the only one that does not care who you train with.
Hi Poryu. I think your answer was spot on.. it's your delivery that has antagonised Dhalisim-on. If you want people to take note of your opinion or views, it helps if you try to understand the reasons they have an issue. You always refuse to step into anyone elses shoes in order to see things from their point of view. Dhalsim-on. I know what you mean, the more training the better right? It's pretty similar stuff, what's the problem? The thing is, all arts are moving in different directions. We study a traditional Japanese martial art. If you want to study the art, you have to accept that there are cultural differences that you may not understand (i'm not Japanese and have had very little exposure to Japan so I don't really understand it either.) You cannot have it both ways, you either accept these differences and train or you do not accept them and so do not train. It's your choice.. after all, there are pleanty of martial arts out there that will not ask you to make this choice. If you're unable to commit to a choice, perhaps those arts would therefore be more suitable. Oh, and to be clear.. This does not only apply to training while in Japan.
HI Maybe so but if someone comes on and is insultive then we have th right to antagonise them in return. After all if they dont belong in our org they shouldnt be disrepectful I dont refuse to step in to their shoes I refuse to when they are rude and offensive. I also understand his andothers reasons but if they deliver a message such as will I be ripped off then they should leave now. There are other reasons for my comments check your pm
