Ok Im back with better with of the difference between BBD and BD

Well, if you must know, it's the latter but we will let the debate die as we have been told.

 

Tiger, there is another thread open that contains several different views on the subject. I recommend reading through that (I'm sure you already have). I'm sure comments of a more contructive nature would still be welcolmed. If, however, you can only muster what you have posted so far then I wouldn't bother.

 

Bujinkan training is vast and based on thousands of years of real combat and death. Many people in the Bujinkan do not have the correct hearts or have not been trained correctly by their teachers who are over confident in their knowledge of Sensei Hatsumis art. These people will surely perish in a real combat scenario and although some of Brians students may be naturally strong enough to withstand the adversity we train to protect ourselves from, for the most part he has condemned them to the same fate for no more than his own personal aims.

 

Just because these schools are listed as three of the nine that make up the Bujinkan organization does not mean that they have already been taught. Hatsumi-sensei is just now releasing information about Kumogakure ryu and information about Gyokushin ryu is very much unavailable. What does this mean? Unless your instructor is currently learning under Hatsumi-sensei, they cannot claim to be teaching these schools as part of their organization. Schools that broke off from the Bujinkan will be teaching as many as six schools from the Bujinkan as well as whatever else they may incorporate, but they won't be teaching the two ninjutsu ryu, Kumogakure and Gyokushin, and most likely not Gikan ryu either. Keep in mind, this is not an attack on any organization. This is just simple fact.

 

Oh well, thats ok then, if its from Brian then it must be the truth!!

And the thing about been hatsumi's students? Hatsumi said you should not be learning from a shidoshi who has not been to Japan in the last five years, when did Brian last go?

 

How come Brian teaches Kumagakure, Gyu Kishin and Gikan ryu? when only a handful are now been taught this?

As for people bashing Hatsumi? why? he is the source, its Brian who lacks depth,

And slagging off the BBD is acceptable because Brain fooled so many of us for years with his Wado Ryu style ninjutsu!! Brian has fooled many people during his time, how many classes are there now? only a handful because no one is bothered about it, and Togakure, since you train in both sides then lets see your name and teacher!!:woo:

 

I think this is just the way we treat the BBD, a deserved lack of respect i think!!

 

No it is not, its against the forum rules I beleive.

Who is bashing Hatsumi? its certainly isnt me, I have nothing for respect for the man.

my Bujinkan teacher is Mike McNeilly from the liverpool dojo, and My BBD teacher is Jim (dont know his second name sorry!)

As for my name, I will not give it out on a public forum or to anyone I dont know personally.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Chapman
And slagging off the BBD is acceptable because..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Togakure
No it is not, its against the forum rules I beleive.


He is correct Greg. Attacks against one teacher or school really are not acceptable. If you have issues with BBD, fine. But please don't bring them here. Same with anyone who has issues with Hatsumi or Hayes or Van Donk or Tew.
MAP is not the place for personal attacks. It is a place of learning, sharing and debating. So I am going to ask, politely this time, to please stop the attacks, slagging off on, name calling, insulting. Want to do it? Then start your own web site for that purpose. But please, not here.

 

No one is, thats my point, you originally stated that no one on here is bashing Hatsumi and that correct, there is no need to he is THE source!

And if you talk to Mike, Nikki or Graham i think you will find they have the same opinion.

Apologies to you Kuro for causing you extra work but the BBD is a sore point for many of us like peaceful tiger, kouryu etc, it wont happen again.....promise....

 

I can understand sore points, I have a few posters here that need a reality check. But, I don't attack them or their schools/teachers, ideas. I just ignore them. Somewhere in their ramblings, they may just have something worth listening to. So, seperate the wheat from the chaff and go on with our lives.

 

Comments like these say more about yourself Greg than the BBD.

I would never "bash" Hatsumi (as I would try and never "bash" anyone) as I believe he is extreemly good at what he does. That deserves respect in anyone's book. However, I do beleive that Hatsumi is also just a man and is therefore open to [respectfull - take note please Greg / Peaceful Tiger] criticism just like everyone else. I have posted previous comments / criticisms in the other threat about the way Hatsumi runs the BInt. Some may agree; many may disagree. Feel free to retort; nobody has as yet. Isn't that why the majority of us post on the forum? It's worth pointing out, no organisation / person is perfect. That may sound obvious but many have forgotten this when it comes to an immotive debate such as this one. The blinkers go on and the posts come from the heart rather than the head. I am sure I am guilty of this as well.

You know it will Greg. you can't help yourself posting immature comments that are simply there for others to bite. (There is a name for that.....) It will happen time and time agian until you refocus all that energy you spend "bashing" the BBD and put it into something positive; like training for example.

Comments like these screem a complete lack of respect for anyone else Greg. How arrogant! Who are you to demand information off another. Who this gentleman trains with is his business and no concern of you, me or anyone else that posts on this forum. Why should he have to justify himself? What would your reaction be it he replied with "I have been training with Hatsumi for two years in Japan." Obviously he doesn't but think for an instant about how that would make you feel. Would your opinions towards him and his views change?

But you and others are clearly bothered and the BBD is all in the "past" for you! The only reason the topic came about in its present form id because YOU made disrespectful comments on the subject of the BBD.

Of course you are entilted to your opinion, but when you express it in such immature language you do one of two things. You enflame others that do not agree with your opinion and hence an arguement (rather than a dicussion) starts and you come across as arrogant and egotistical. Had your comments refected your opinions in more of mature and responsible manner than maybe people would take you seriously (IMO ).

I am glad you can acknowledege this . If however you are you are being sacastic (I know its in you Greg) then you must be claiming Brian is lying. Perhaps, seeing as you feel so strongly on the subject, you should write to Brian McCarthy personally and put him straight. Or even better, pay him and his students a visit in Dublin (a lovely city with a great nightlife) and discuss it. I am sure the discussion would be enlightening. Of course you are not going to do any of those. It's fair easier to berate from the comfort/safety of a desk.
On a more personal point, when somebody places a comment like...

it insults everything that I (not Brian and not the BBD) have worked and trained for in the nine years I have been with that organisation. Not only is it factually incorrect; by association, Tiger, you are saying that I do not deserve what has been bestowed on me by my chief instructor because I am a member of this group. Again, it screems of pure arrogance.
Unfortunatly there are those who almost hijack a thread and troll. This ruins the opertunity for healthy discussion among others as people are almost compelled to reply to the troll.
Greg and Peacefull Tiger and excellent examples of this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the discussion:
It might be worth going through a little of the history behind the BBD.
1984 - Bujinkan Dojo Ishizuka Society set up in Europe.
1985 - The group no longer needed the protection of BDIS and transformed into European Bujinkan Ninjutsu Society (EBNS).
edit - As it happens when Bo F. Munthe resigned from European Bujinkan Ninjutsu Society in 1985 he set up a dojo called Bujinkan Bo Dojo.
1987 - EBNS grows to one of the largest organisations outside of Japan and its administration was no longer needed. The Bujinkan Brian Dojo was founded (BBD). In August 1987 the first European Tai Kai was held. Those who attend:
Hatsumi, Ishizuka, Nagato, Kan, Noguchi, Navone, Hoban, Bogsetter, Mendoca, Munte, Evans plus 350 students.
Nov 1993 - Brian resigned from the Bukinkan International (as it was called then).
Maybe this might set the record straight somewhat with regards to timing of events.
I would ask, if Brian doesn't teach Ninjutsu than what was being taught (under the authority of Hatsumi) from 1984 to 1993? Would Hatsumi been happy with some sort of quasi-ninja-karate style? I think not. Brian McCarthy has not made any claim to teach Budo Taijutsu. As far as I am aware what is being taught within the BBD is Ninpo Taijutsu. Again, as far as I am aware this is what was being taught in Europe (and the rest of the world) from the late eighties thorugh Hatsumi until he decided to change focus and create Budo Taijitsu (possible this could be intepreted as a re-packaging of Ninjutsu). IMO, Brian has continued to teach Ninpo Taijitsu from that date. If people wish to claim that this is some sort of substandard system/style then the comments should best be directed towards Hatsumi as he was the one teaching it to others for over ten (approx) years and to Brian for nine years.

I have said it before. There are those that do not find the training within the BBD suits them. I respect that and I respect their decision to train within other organstions regardless about how I feel about that group. People should however realise that there are many who find the training fun / useful and certainly challenging. However, its seems that there are those that do not respect people's decision to train within the BBD. They are the "I am right and everyone else is wrong" crowd. No amount of discussion can make them acknowledge another's point of view / reference. Ultimatley they suffer in the lng run because they are unable to adapt to ever changing situations due to their blinkered approach to life.

 

Well said bouk teef.

The world would certainly be a happier more peacefull place if everyone could accept each others differences, rather than attack and mock them because they disagree with those differences.

To greg: you have already attacked the BBD on several occasions, and each time have stated you have 'issues' with the BBD,and each time you have said you will not attack it again in the future, and yet you continue to do so. Why not just accept that yes, maybe you had a bad exsperince, maybe that was down to a bad teacher, or maybe just because the BBD was not for you.

Either way, there are many people enjoying training with the BBD, myself included, so instead of continously bashing an organisation you are no longer part of, maybe you could try and get along with the people who are?, you never know, you may even make some new friends in the process.

Is there really any point in the hostility and contempt you continously display about the BBD and its members?, is it contructive? does it make you feel better stiring up discontent and bad feeling among people?

Heres a tip for you greg, if you think the BBD is a pointless mockery of Ninjutsu and all its members are fools, laugh, laugh out long and hard, laugh at everything you hate about it, everything you percieve to be rediculous, laugh it all away.

Ive done this about people who make me feel bad, and if for some reason the BBD makes you feel bad, laugh it off, and forget about it, continous conflict makes neither side feel any better, and if you simply dont care about somthing any more, it wont bother you ever again.

I hope you can see here that ive not attacked you Greg, or demeaned somthing you train in, ive not mocked your teacher, and ive not made out that I am somehow better than you - even though I disagree with what you say.

 

Here we go!!!

Seeing how this thread never quite died, I have decided to throw my hat into this mess. The original email by TheMaster that started this entire thing is so full of malarkey that I just had to respond. Bouk Teef also continues the malarkey so I will also address his comments as well.

Soke made mention of the idea of the "additional" five levels of tenth dan as early as 1983.... Although they are called "Eleventh dan", "Twelfth dan", etc. those are merely heuristics to separate the differences. All of these ranks are different forms of tenth dan, although they are given out in a particular order--which makes the "eleventh", "twelfth", etc. labeling adopted by some seem sensical. The ranks are as follows:

Judan Chigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Earth aka "11th Dan")
Judan Suigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Water aka "12th Dan")
Judan Kagyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Fire aka "13th Dan")
Judan Fugyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Wind aka "14th Dan")
Judan Kugyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Emptyness aka "15th Dan")

Several of the Japanese Shihan, including Shiraishi-sensei and Nagato-sensei, did not pass on the first attempt. Brian's beef is what precisely? That giving multiple tries somehow "lessens" the test? Hm.... Seems strange because multiple tries have been part of the test FROM BEFORE BRIAN STARTED TRAINING!

As Nagato-sensei said to a friend of mine who got whacked the first time because he was too nervous before passing the second time after he let his mind go, "You got hit the first time. You're dead!!! But you must be like a phoenix and rise up from death! Keep going!"

Now THAT is what the attitude should be!!!

Instead Brian chooses to belittle the accomplishment of others for his own gain. He hints that because he passed on the first try that somehow he is "better." (Just for the record, I also passed on the first try. Yet I do not use that as an excuse for saying that I am "better" than others who took multiple tries. Only someone who is insecure in his own Budo tries to divide people in such ways....)

In an earlier thread, Bouk Teef argued that "today's sakki test is a 'watered-down' version from days gone by." What is this comment based on? Something Brian told him? LOL! Again insecurity leads to trying to differentiate oneself because the actual understanding is not there. More on this below with respect to "real ninjutsu training."

Hatsumi-sensei is the Soke. He can give ranks in ANY form that he wants. Some ranks are given for accomplishment, some for encouragement, some to see if the individual becomes an arrogant assh*le who think he knows better than Soke.

The question you should ask is, "How does Brian know that his *OWN* ranks were not given for these various reasons?!?" LOL! ;-) Based on the facts, it appears that Brian himself went from Mukyu (no rank) to Hachidan (8th Degree) in less than 10 years!

Whenever someone such as Brian makes a comment like this, they NEVER look at their own ranks in that light. LOL! NEVER! They always say, "I was different." Don't you realize how preposterously arrogant that attitude is?!? Once again, attempts to differentiate himself by lowering others.

Besides, other people's rank have NOTHING to do with one's own development.

ANYONE WHO LEAVES SOKE BECAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE'S RANKS IS CLEARLY PUTTING THE IMPORTANCE OF RANK OVER HIS/HER OWN TRAINING!

This fact conflicts DIRECTLY with the supposed reason for departing. Brian and his ilk are caught in their own web of insecurity. It's very simple, and no blustering will change that fact. This is an example of a child who thinks he knows better than the parent as to what is right.

HE CLEARLY STILL THINKS THAT HE KNOWS BETTER THAN SOKE as to "what the Bujinkan should be." Read closely Brian's letter of resignation, which I've included below. Despite all the flowery language, at heart, Brian demonstrates this arrogance. He tells Soke straight out that he knows what the art "should be."

Untrue...

I guess that is why myself, and others, have learned Suitonjutsu, Silent Swimming, Shinobiaruki, Ninja swordwork, etc. There is simply NO BASIS for this claim that there are "secrets" reserved for the Japanese! NONE.

These types of statements are common among people, such as Brian, who have something to sell. They claim, "Only *I* learned real ninjutsu...stuff that is no longer taught."

FOR THE RECORD, ANY SUCH STATEMENTS ARE PATENTLY WRONG AND INTENDED TO BILK UNSUSPECTING STUDENTS OUT OF MONEY!

Anyone who has been training for the two decades since Hatsumi-sensei first went abroad has been learning the same information. I have talked with numerous people, including those living in Japan who left training long ago, about the training "back in the day." The focus of Hatsumi-sensei's teaching has ALWAYS been on Taijutsu--the use of the spine, the knees, footwork, and hips to create kuzushi, generate power, etc. What many have told me is that there were many, including probably Brian judging from his position being presented by Bouk Keef, that were enamored by the "trappings of Ninjutsu," but they failed to see what Hatsumi-sensei was really doing. I have confirmed this with some of the first practitioners of this art. Hatsumi-sensei changed the name, not the Budo.

All menkyo used to bear the name of "Togakure Ryu" or "Ninpo Taijutsu" out of convenience. Several people have used this fact as an excuse to say that they were learning "Togakure Ryu" that is no longer taught. They point to the Menkyo on the wall as confirmation of their knowledge. Those who started training BEFORE Brian ever did, and who continue to train today, ALL CONFIRM that, in fact, what they thought was being presented as "Togakure Ryu" was actually "Budo Taijutsu." They hold the same Menkyo as Brian that state "Togakure Ryu" and "Ninpo Taijutsu," but none of them actually believe that they had learned the Ninpo Ryuha. The reason why? Because the stuff Hatsumi-sensei has revealed in recent years as Ninpo is completely new to them!

Hatsumi-sensei has boxes of stuff on Ninpo and Takamatsu-sensei that have never been viewed before. I had the honor of seeing some of this stuff in recent years. Only those who continue to train with Hatsumi-sensei can recognize this fact. Unfortunately for Brian, he is missing all the actual training that is going on today. How could he possibly recognize that what he thought he knew was a mirage....

For the record, Hatsumi-sensei has also stated during the recent past when we studied the Ninpo arts that he had never revealed true Ninpo in years past. This again confirms what students from before Brian was part of the art stated. So you can either believe Brian, a man trains in the history of his understanding, or the living Soke and the continuing students. I think I'll put my money on the verity of the large numbers and menkyo kaiden holders....

Brian also sent a letter of resignation to Hatsumi-sensei. He therefore is no longer a Bujinkan member. (See below)

Brian submitted a letter of resignation to his teacher. Thus he is no longer Hatsumi-sensei's student BY HIS OWN VOLITION! It's kinda hard to argue that Hatsumi-sensei is your teacher when you (1) Disregard his direction as to how the art should be taught, (2) Publicly state that you know better than your teacher as to the teaching of the art, (3) Cease training with the man, and (4) Public severe your ties with the man.

Brian has no right to the Bujinkan name. Yet, he realizes that if he does not use the Bujinkan name, his legitimacy is undermined and his ability to sucker students out of their money is also undone. Brian's choice to use the Bujinkan name is solely for economic gain. That's clear to all but his students.

May all your choices be good ones....

-ben

------------------------------------
RESIGNATION LETTER OF BRIAN McCARTHY
------------------------------------

November 1993

Dear Sensei,

It is with great sadness that I write this letter to you. I have decided after much thought to remove myself and my organization from the Bujinkan International. I would like to explain my reasons for this action. For many years I have been disturbed by the way Ninpo Taijutsu has been taught in the west. The standard of teaching and instructors is generally bad. Some Blackbelts are motivated only by status and money, which results in students not receiving the benefits of a real martial art. These people have been graded by yourself and therefore believe what they do is correct.

When I first met you in America you apologized for the bad martial arts which had come from Japan. I was impressed by your honesty and your integrity. It was then I decided to follow your way. Unfortunately many things have changed during the intervening years. I can no longer justify to my students and other martial artists why a person who has trained in Ninjutsu only two years and be 20 years old holds a high ranking dan grade. This has become common practice around the world. I cannot justify why dan grades are given away to people who don't have the spirit of Ninjutsu in their hearts or the "Taijutsu" of Ninpo in their bodies. I cannot accept the high grading fees that people have to pay without first learning the basics of our art in a dojo. This I believe was the great failure of Tai-Kais. There are many more reasons and examples that I could write about, but I feel this would only serve to damage our art even further.

When you graded me to Shodan and gave me my painting I formed the Bujinkan Brian Dojo to support and promote your way of training as you received it from Takamatsu Sensei. When I graded to Godan I passed my Sakki test on the first attempt. All the students that I brought to you also passed on the first attempt. Now people are allowed many opportunities and are continually struck. This is no longer an example of Sakki.

I went to Japan in 1991 to speak with you and try to understand what your intentions were. At that time I expressed my concerns and asked for your advice. The only answer I received was "not to worry" and to continue what I was doing. I have waited since then to see a change in the Bujinkan so we could become what we were meant to be. This unfortunately has not happened. It is now time for me to take my students on the path of what I believe is the true way of teaching martial arts. This I believe should begin with honesty and end with respect.

No doubt that I have made mistakes and upset some people by the way I teach, however I have always sought to give my students what they deserve in helping them in this life. I have always protected them and defended our right to practice the real arts without commercialism and greed. I will continue in the future as I have been in the past. I maintain my personal affection and respect for you and am saddened by what the Western World has influenced the Bujinkan to become.

The BBD will continue to practice Ninpo Taijutsu as an independent organization in all the countries where we have strong dojos and good students. I have earned the right to teach and influence people by showing them that ninpo still exists and will continue to grow. I have always acknowledged you as my teacher and I will continue to do so on a personal level. I am grateful for what you taught me in the past and for the respect and esteem which you afforded me . I regret that our relationship will end but I must put being honest to myself and my students before all else. I have the support of all my blackbelts and students in writing this letter.

In closing, on a personal level I with you and your wife Maniko good health and peace. Maybe in a future life we can train together again.

Sincerely,

B.M. McCarthy.
Hachidan
Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu

 

Thank you Ben and welcome to MAP. I hope that this isn't your first and only post and that you continue to contribute.
By the way, I REALLY enjoyed your seminar here in Houston, it was great fun and I learned some really valuable information. Those few hours have helped me make a tremendous improvement in my taijutsu. (I was the guy sitting to your left at Tenshi).

 

Hello Mr. Cole,
This is jibran from Kutaki No Mura. I didn't really understand this Bujinkan Brian Stuff until you clarified it and with back up information too. Thank you, sir and welcome to MAP.
Your buyu,
Jibran Khan

 

Hi all,

Not wishing to get caught in the cross fire here, as I've been trying to sift through the various threads regarding the BBD, but I was just wondering does Mr McCarthy train under anyother Ninjutsu practioner so as to further his own expertise and knowledge?

Now I don't wish to offend anyone as this question is not a "dig" at Mr McCarthy or the BBD and its members and I appologise in advance if I have done so, I'm just trying to see where training in the BBD would take it's members when they get to a certain level. I'm not talking about ranks or belts as such but knowledge of the art as it seems, to me, that they are cut off from the source.

Are there any rules in the BBD that prevent its members from cross training with Bujinkan practioners, if Mr McCarthy felt that he was protecting his students by breaking away from the Bujinkan .

I hope I have managed to get accross my intent with this post and have avioded any potential flak...lol

Cheers

 

In response to your question, the answer is NO!, the last time McCarthy trained with anyone was in 1991 when he went to Japan, he only teaches, as i`ve stated in previous posts, in the 10yrs that he was under Hatsumi Sensei he met him about 8 times and 5 of those meetings were Tai Kai`s.
There are no written rules regarding cross training.

 

I am not going to post any more, its all starting to get a bit personal, i think Ben has cleared everything up!

Just thanks to Keith and Togakure for yet another interesting session as they were the only ones in the BBD on here!!!

 

Thanks Norman sorry if I made you repeat yourself and would just like to say I really enjoyed the training on Sunday and now have full use of my elbow lol


Rich