Legs shaking in meditation PLEASE HELP!

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by apprentice, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Puzzled Dragon

    Puzzled Dragon Valued Member

    Apprentice:
    Nothing to worry, it will change. Why it is happening doesn't matter, you did this twice so far and even if you meanwhile did it thrice, so what.

    If you move from your TV-chair to the bed, later get into the car and then sit in the office all day, you won't have the condition to stand there at ease. I've seen well trained people (tennis, p. e.) shake too. Other muscles used or something, anyway it passes. After that phase we sweat a lot or whatever but that too passes.

    A little bit of perseverance and 'take no notice' will take care of all that, all by itself.
     
  2. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Just thought I'd add my personal experience from tonight into the mix...

    I went out into my garden to do some practice, I can usually stand for about 15 minutes or so in a focused manner, however tonight I couldn't focus at all and my whole body was shaking like a paint mixer in under a minute.
    I backed off, did some sitting meditation and a bit of taiji form, then came back to standing and did my normal standing period...

    Funny five minutes, maybe?? :eek:
     
  3. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Unquotable in the reply also - due to posting anomalies.

    On the layman's view, I don't have to be a concert pianist to know when someone can not play piano. It's as simple as that - and you're twisting that to make it seem like it means that laymen could tell the difference between two brilliant players. The result is that we lose a very valid and useful insight - unfortunately, because we need that insight.

    On what the Yaos think of Wang's standing, or if if they've changed the method - I don't know.

    As for those who train for fatigue - well, like all of yiquan, taiji, xing yi - in fact ALL of it - you know, you see very little really, really, REALLY amazing stuff from anyone, no matter what they do - standing, no standing, fatigue standing. I don't really care about any of them, but I especially care least about those who seem to be really eagre to make me believe that they do really macho levels of painful training. I just think "false face... the truth is usually the opposite of what you so desperately want me to believe..."
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
  4. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I should think everyone has a bit of that. Sometimes I think standing actually makes me feel a little ill. Other times, I feel invigorated. Maybe it's combinations of fatigue, mental attitude - who knows?
     
  5. QuaiJohnCain

    QuaiJohnCain Valued Member

    ...twisting what I say again, I see.

    I never stated that pain is a goal. Nowhere.

    If you actually read what I wrote in bringing up CXW, it was in reference to shaking, which he does do sometimes.

    I am perfectly aware of his views by his writings. But reading what he says, is very different from receiving his ways of instruction in the flesh. When you get to a certain point of achievement, he'll come and push you a little further. One of the side effects is constant soreness.


    I kicked you, you kicked me, lets get over it. Sticks and stones.....
     
  6. Kalamondin

    Kalamondin Valued Member

    Reply to original post

    Hi Apprentice,

    Not to worry about the leg shaking. I agree with most of the others that it's very normal in the beginning, and that training your muscles to hold you up instead of moving is an entirely different kind of strain.

    If you're interested, Master Lam Kam Chuen has a good book about standing meditation: http://www.lamkamchuen.com/works.htm

    He mentions that shaking is one of the possible things that can happen while standing. It's been awhile since I read it, though I think his advice was not to worry about it, not to focus on it, just keep relaxing and trying to maintain the correct posture.

    From my experience, sometimes there's shaking when I start up again after taking a break, or sometimes heat or aches...all par for the course. The good part is when all of that fades, and I have the sensation of being relaxed, and even though I've been holding my arms out in front of me, I feel as though they are floating, and I feel buoyed up and not tired. Of course, that's the middle--I always go until I start to shake/hurt/be tired, and then I go a little longer to build endurance, and then I stop.

    Best wishes for your beginning practice. Standing meditation is one of the best things you can do; it will be of benefit to your entire practice.
     
  7. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Well, I'm in the middle of moving house right now, so I certainly feel fatigued!! :woo:
     
  8. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Moving house IS very stressful!

    Anyway - here's the link to TabbyCat's Yiquan blog, where he mentions the guy who trained standing for three hours, and that Yao Cheng Guang thought it ridiculous - and why.

    http://cattanga.typepad.com/see_otter_yiquan/page/3/

    It's an interesting read anyway - nice writer. There was also an article by Yao Cheng RONG on Martialguy's website - sadly now closed - totally dismissing "fatigue training" as nonsense and pointless - but it's not available, as far as I can find, anymore.
     
  9. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    So, we won't always be in constant pain if we are doing it right?

    So, we WILL will always be in constant pain if we are doing it right? :confused:

    Maybe you need to have a re-think of just exactly what it is you're trying to use Chen Xiao Wang to prove.



    I don't take it personally John - what I do is try to demonstrate how people use "making it personal" as a debating tactic .

    Well, what I should say is that you demonstrated it - I just happened to be the target.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2008
  10. QuaiJohnCain

    QuaiJohnCain Valued Member

    Well, while pain is not the goal, that does not mean it will not show up, especially if you are receiving corrections.

    Not at all. Good, hard training results in some shaking and soreness. I'm not trying to use CXW to prove my point, no need. But I thought it would be useful to point out that he sometimes pushes himself into the territory that some think, is excessive.
     
  11. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Too much play the flute maybe? Contrary to western claims of the health benefit of playing the flute, it's dedicated practice leads to shaky legs and bad knees.
    I know of a master who knows this guy's uncle with rickety knees who never acquired the death touch secret (dimsum tm) because he played the flute :eek:.
     
  12. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Mind telling us how you know that?
     
  13. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Are you completely nuts? :confused:
     
  14. QuaiJohnCain

    QuaiJohnCain Valued Member

    CXW sometimes stays at my teacher's house when he is in town for seminars. There was a time when my teacher was milling about, and spotted Chen standing, and shaking. He looked at him like, "what?" Chen said, "I'm giving myself pizza". Heh. Which of course begs the question of what that means.

    That would best be answered by comments my teacher himself made on another forum: http://tchw.freeforums.org/how-to-regain-flexibility-t9.html

    The 11th and 13th posts (made by "Feihu" whom is my teacher) will address the things we've been discussing in this thread as well.
     
  15. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    I'm sorry John, but there's nothing there about Chen Xiao Wang saying that he trains zhan zhuang to what "other people would call excessive" levels. Nor is there anything that says CXW thinks we should be in constant pain. It just says that your teacher saw CXW shaking.

    Your teacher thinks we should be in pain - and you think it. Still, there's nothign that says CXW thinks it.

    Let's make it clear though, that we're talking abotu zhan zhuang. Obviously, hard training - especially in a low stance art like Chen taiji, will have people in burning leg and muscle pain.

    But burning pain for zhan zhuang contradicts the entire point of zhan zhaung -so I wonder if you aren't using your teacher, and CXW, wrongly, by implying that they mean that in standing one should be in burning, agonising pain? I didn't read anything there to suggest that CXW thinks we should always be in pain if we are doing zz correctly.

    *Correction - I think your teacher really does believe that we should be in tortuous, agonising pain, lol.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  16. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    John, I've read through some of your teacher's posts... he makes a big deal out of his tortuous, bitter eating training to achieve high level. Has he a video we could view?
     
  17. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Seconded.

    That way, we will know more about your experience of standing practice.

    I am aware there is always the proverbial 'two ways around the (taiji) circle' As in some teachers advocate standing 'through the pain' and others advocate stopping and shaking out as soon as there is any discomfort.

    I fall between the two.....I feel it is better to gradually and constantly build up stamina and ability to hold standing postures, but not to the extend of enduring actual pain. Pain is the bodies way of telling you it is in trouble, not a challenge to ignore it.

    There is many an innocent TaiJiQuan student with the dreaded "Taiji knee" syndrome, caused by this type of training.
     
  18. QuaiJohnCain

    QuaiJohnCain Valued Member

    Well, my teacher did say that he draws his information directly from his teacher's personal instruction....

    If we are to limit to ZZ only, then you half correct in that more intense ZZ training is not as difficult to endure as "working the form", where you spend alot of time at each posture. But if you ask for more intense correction, it's gonna burn. As for knees (reference to CaryS), that issue is addressed by settling your weight into the kwa more than the knees. Consequently, that, (the kwa) is where the burn will be experienced.

    Well, if you read my teacher's comments about CXW's use of food as analogy to practice, I would say that if you ask for "pizza" in your ZZ (piZZa?) then yeah, it burns. It is not that Chen goes around recommending this. It is completely up to the student. To paraphrase my teacher, if you have no interest in high level skill or martial applicability, then eating bitter (pizza) is not important.

    More on CXW's Pizza by someone other than my teacher or myself:
    http://wujimon.com/2004/09/13/pizza-from-chen-xiao-wang/


    The only video footage of my teacher is on George Xu's Xin Yi instructionals. If you are worried about his credentials, he lists them on his blog at EF:
    http://www.emptyflower.net/forums/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=57&showentry=322
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2008
  19. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Carys! Your insight is breath-taking ... hehe. Do you think we take ourselves too seriously?

    It's fascinating watching tropical fish in an aquarium, just like watching the forum ... much better than the aquarium in a way ... and I still get to *feed the fish* :hat:.
     
  20. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    So? Maybe your teacher misinterprets CXW? He's been training with CXW what, three years?

    More relevant is that you're trying to support things you assert by saying "I'm telling you that my teacher told me that what Chen Xiao Wang thinks is..."

    Worse, you're using this idea of painful, hard taiji training to falsely support your claim that zhan zhuang should always leave us in pain if we're doing it correctly. Everyone else seems to be talking just about normal taiji training as painful - not standing. Maybe you found standing painful because you had your posture adjusted to a more correct position which you weren't used to?

    That'll go, with practice.

    Well, we were talking about standing meditation, weren't we?

    No. If your legs are bent, and all your weight is on them, your legs are going to burn.

    Anyway, are you saying that you do low stance zhan zhuang, similar to some xing yi training?

    You mean, if you're at a seminar holding your arms incorrectly, and CXW corrects you, you will experience burning because you're holding a new position, using new parts of the body, and holding it for longer than you want to because CXW and everyone are looking at you?

    The irony here is that your pain came because you've not being doing it right in the first place, i.e. the "pain" is a product, ultimately, of incorrect practice, not better practice. Once you have the better posture, you can get used to it. Right?

    But again, I think you're trying to use the painfulness of general taiji training to "cover" what you said about always being in pain in ZZ if you are doing it correctly.

    Sorry to labour the point, but if you're lecturing on "what it takes to achieve high level", then people may listen to you - so I want to be sure that it really is the correct information.


    No, I know - it's you that recommended it.

    High level in Quan is a glorious, profound achievement - truly, the accomplishment of an impeccable, unwavering will. How cheaply you use it simply as a means to put others down, and raise yourself up.

    You and your teacher make a very big deal out of your bitter training to achieve high level. Is there anything at all to justify those claims? Wang Xiang Zhai famously said that those who claim high level in public, but hide behind closed doors aren't worth a penny.


    Still nothing there to say that zhan zhuang equals permanent pain if you're doing it right. All anyone's saying in these threads you quote - which we all knew I should think - is that Chen taiji makes your muscles really burn. So does Shaolin Quan, nanquan, chang quan. Horse stance and punch does. Zz is a different type of exercise.

    Is there a youtube clip of that?

    Funny - his claims are a lot bigger than his proofs, which is never a good sign.


    Yeah.. his credentials aren't really all that impressive, actually - not that credentials mean anything anyway. He's been Chen Xiao Wang's disciple for three years, and he trained witha few other people "privately", which also means "off and on" I should think.

    Your teacher and his wife are disciples of Chen Xiao Wang - husband and wife team, eh? You know, the Chen's have hundreds of students, some of whom are simply honourary, in reality - people who provide lodging when they come to town, or who run big centres that provide lots of people for seminars.

    I know it's probably madness to you, but I judge people on their personal, actual level and understanding, not on who they trained with - even if they've trained with them for as long as, erm...three years...
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2008

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