UFC is not real fighting ,as they say, BUT it is obviously closer than other events like karate or judo tournaments.
Hitting in the neck with an elbow is banned in the UFC? Learn something new everyday... Oh and Kenshin theres just recently been a discussion on one of the threads floating around about the origins of Wing Chun which you might want to look at. I wouldnt advocate basing information on the origin of Wing Chun from the net as if you do that with any martial art you will likely find romanticised myths than anything accurate.
CKava...I mean official Wing Chun sites (e.g.federations). Aren't FATAL BLOWS forbiden in the UFC??? A direct BLOW to the neck could kill an oponent. I never remember seen such a thing in UFC or that sort of fights.
To clarify some points made earlier, Wing Chun does have stances!! However, in the context of fighting they change fairly rapidly. From my knowledge, (which is fairly limited, and so Im only talking from my experience) the stance is important since certain stances allow you to change your weight distribution. This next bit will be for the Wing Chun enthusiasts so apologies if you don't understand what Im talking about. EG if you are double inside gate, (ie both your hands are inside your opponents hands) it is quite a dangerous position to be in because it is easier to break stick on the outside than on the inside, hence your opponent has a better chance of striking you. From what I've been taught, a good way to get out is to form a Kwun sao, (I think thats how its transliterated), ie a bong and tan sao. From there people either push on the tan which allows you to shift the tan to bong and the bong hand snakes through to outside gate tan; from here a single/double lap sao, or pak and strike from this position is possible. Also, if you're opponent doesn't bite from the pressure of the Tan sao, then the angle of your tan sao can turn into a front hand palm strike to face/chest, etc. However, the key to this move is the kwun sao; and the key to the kwun sao comes from turning efficiently and powerfully in the side stance, ie toes and heels in parrallel lines, whilst you are facing you're opponent. If the stance is crap, the shapes are crap, which in turn lets your opponent crush your hands directly through your centre. This obviously isn't the only counter, or best counter, Im using this as an example of stances in Wing Chun. However the stances are momentary, and are there for a purpose rather than posing and getting knocked on your ass...
Wing Chun in competition..... Let me throw this one in the pot and see where it goes - Now I forget the name of the event BUT it may be interesting (or not) to know that a Wing Chun practitioner won a UK freestyle competition against all other styles and competitors. As I say, I forget the event but it happened around Oct/Nov in Sheffield and the name of the person I am referring to is Paul Smith, the sifu of a Samuel Kwok affiliated school in Edinburgh. Again, this is NOT proof that WC is better than any other art, simply that it was better at that time against the other competitors....
Wing Chun, the last stop for me... Hello fellow martial artists. It's good to hear such thought out points on WC and other arts. I'd like to tell you about my experience and why I no longer question WC as an effective or not effective art. I have studied some form of martial art since the age of 13 (I am 31 now). Judo, standing Ju Jutsu, Brazilian Ju Jutsu, 5 animals, TaeKwonDo, Vovinam, Shotokan before Wing Chun Gung Fu. In my own experience the striking arts of TKD, Vovinam, and Shotokan as well as standing Ju Jutsu did not help me much when I tried to use them against regular people or just sparring to test out their effectiveness. Out of the group, only Brazilian Ju Jitsu held up and was very practical in most situations. So I stuck with BJJ until I move to SF for work. There I had a chance to check out WC schools and went to a certain school to see if I would like it and to also check out it's effectiveness against BJJ. So I talked with them and ended up in a friendly match. But to my surprise, no matter how hard I tried, I always ended up getting my face bashed in until I called Uncle. So I decided to study in their Kwoon. I am 5'2" but I have been beating 6' and taller and stronger people easily when I use BJJ techniques so it's not that I suck at BJJ or anything. Of course that doesn't mean that I am really an awesome BJJ talent or anything. Anyways, the guy I fought at the WC school wasn't even a senior and he schooled me so I thought, maybe I should open up my mind. In the beginning to about 9months into training, I thought this is a bunch of crazy talk, how the hell is this ever gonna work. Then eventually, after I shed my doubts and started to practice earnestly for 4hr or more a day, I began to automatically do stuff and it started to click and work as advertised. I found that the more muscle I used, the more likely I was going to lose to an opponent. Anyways, since that time, I have dove into WC and found that it is quite ingenious and works IF the practitioner is diligent and does not have a big ego which tends to imagine stupid falsities like "only muscle can deliver power" etc. Even going up against huge bodybuilder guys, I didn't have much of a problem. Because I just earnestly put the principles into action and didn't worry about any fist flying to my head or foot to my stomach. It's funny how it worked when I lost my fear and doubt and just followed it's proscribe principles. So I might make this conclusion, at least on my part. WC will not work if the fighter is 1. Fearful of his opponent. 2. Egotistical-worried about losing or winning or wants to appear macho 3. Dependent upon his muscles to deliver his power or muscles to deflect oncoming blows. 4. if the practitioner is too hard, he/she will get destroyed pretty quickly. If my opponent had huge muscles and depended on strength, I would just abandon my reliance on strength so that strength was no longer an issue for me to deal with. I did not play the "strength game" since my stonger opponent would easily demolish me using his superior strength. So I used the opposite game which bewildered my opponent since he was used to resistance. I deflected, and absorbed and did not resist his pressure, once he was heavily inside my safe, and stable center, I easily manipulated his extended limbs to my needs. Because this felt so foreign to him, he could not understand how it was happening and tried to compensate with even more strength and effort, but it just made it worst. I didn't hit him, he hit himself using my hands. Oh I thought, how utterly ingenious that this system had been developed! From then on, I have devoted myself to studying WC and eagerly absorb any WC family methods that are useful to my body size and structure. For me, it is the last stop in the journey of martial arts. I am sure that it might not be suitable for people with different temperments so of course I wouldn't say that WC is for everyone. If you like to do flying kicks, and believe that muscles can save you, then, WC is not for you. If you want to get better as you get older, then WC is probably a good bet. It avoids the cultivation of hard and harmful training methods such as hard conditioning exercises which result in the increased risk of geriatric diseases like arthritis etc. I remember my previous hard training regiments in TKD and Vovinam and look at the fact that most MuyThai professionals don't but about 8 years or so and then develop many internal health problems from all that harsh beating that they learned to withstand. Then I thank God that I found WC while I still have time to develop it and get better and better. Anyways, that's why I found WC to be the last stop for me. I don't mean to belittle others, but being a rather frail person of small stature, I can't afford the immense physical stress that is required of other arts. If I were stronger and bigger, I might not have ever believed this article myself, and might have taken up and studied BJJ or Muy Thai for the rest of my able life. But since I am not, then I was fortunate enought to test WC for myself. It has passed so far. So if you are superman, you can study whatever you want, but if you ain't then choose carefully so you don't end up defeating the purpose of training in martial arts--which is of course to stay healthy and to be able to defend yourself. How are you gonna fight anything if you can't even get up without the pain of some injury you got from training? Best wishes to all you fellow practicioners of all arts. Viet
With no will to take anything away from WC as an art. This only proves that Paul (yes we've met) was better on the day! Whether WC facillitated this or not is another matter!
True. I beleive he has done Kickboxing, Escrima, Karate etc as well which may have something to do with it I just find it interesting (personally) that, out of them all, he chose to teach WC.
Lessee... There's Rickson Gracie VS Levicki in some japanese vale tudo event. Matreyia: What happened when you shot in for a double?
haha, that link was too funny, that guy just plain sucked. He didn't even make an attempt to block the wrestler who was obviously going to shoot from the start.
Double takedown vs. WC When I tried the double take down with or without feints, it was quite simple, the guy just punched in the face which prevented my arms from reaching around any part of him. It was like getting a jousting lance stuck in your face...only you didn't see it coming. Imagine putting your face against one end of a bat then pushing the other end against a wall. When I tried the "safer" single leg takedown, it was worst! The guy just absorbed my head into and under his affected leg and moved back just enough to have the superior top position. So imagine a person grinding his knee into your neck/shoulder area with his entire weight on top of you. Ouch. He was nice about it though, really concerned with my condition. When I tried to kick to set up for a shoot, the guy jammed the kick which caused me to lurch forward to avoid falling, then he again put his fist in my face, chest and stomach. After five attempts, I called it quits. I have watched many many supposed wing chun fighters who just look like they throw what they "learned" out the window when it comes to applying it in a real fight. It's like patty cake or playing dumby or something. Too bad that people use these guys as a reference point for WC. It's really not fair since we don't know the circumstances in which this or that person got into the tournament in the first place. My opinion is (it's just my opinion btw) that if you study an art in order to win tournaments, then you study it in order to win tournaments...and you will probably pay attention to those techniques or methods which are most likely going to help you win in the tournament. If you study an art because you are interested in testing that art's "truth" and it's purported function, then you are probably not going to do well or even looked upon in a good light if you use it in a tournament. Darting fingers, involuntary reflexive offensive and defensive actions which target very vulnerable areas, unceasing blows after finding a weak spot ain't gonna fly in the ring. If you ever get a chance to attend a Wing Chun seminar, for God's sake go see Kenneth Chung. I have seen three live masters of WC which I ain't gonna name because I got respect for all of them and don't want to appear biased and don't want any hard feelings, out of the three, Kenneth Chung is the one that scared the crap out of me and that has actually showed me first hand the incredible power of WC. He is not describable in words. It's like first you meet him and you think, "what ever" Then he talks and explains about WC and techniques and how, when etc. Then he demonstrates it on you personally. Then if you are small, he will show the technique on a huge person (the last guy was 6' 4"). Put it this way, as a small demonstration of the relaxation aspect of WC, he lined 25 of us in a circle and with almost completely outstretched arms he delivered what felt like a concussion bomb to our chests that knocked out all the air and put us all on the ground. This is in the span of less than 30 seconds. Then when he was finished, he asked us to check his body for pulse, respiration or sweat. There was no sweat, and everything else was like he was sitting in a chair all that time. I thought to myself, surely I have wasted the better half of my life pursuing a fantasy and now this man has opened my eyes to authentic martial skills. Then I thought how this man would demolish those UFC/Pride people if that's what he wanted to do in life. Man I would pay good money to see that, but alas that ain't gonna happen. Well guys/gals, this don't mean much in the big picture of art vs. art cause in the end it's the individual that is gonna determine success or not. Good art and lazy person = loser. So so art and determined practicioner = likely winner. Of course that analogy just defeated my previous assertion that "there ain't such a thing as a good or bad art" Strive diligently for your liberation friends, find your truth.
i liked your posts, they are much more intelligent. many people are judgmental of many forms just by rumor, what they've read, or what they saw in a video once. i think this post or another thread had a video of a ninjitsu student vs a wing chun. lol , i did not see one wing chun move in there at all, so why do they think he is a wc student? on shareaza (like kazaa) i downloaded some wc videos, all which were not WC. there was a karatee vs wc movie, lol the guy was not even doing WC. if he was, he would of known what a freaking guard hand was. it was so bad. this guy in black just prounced around while the karatee guy kicked him in the head. i think thier intention of the video was to have a guy roleplay "another martial art" so they could pretend to beat that form down. true warriors do not have to prove they are a warrior. art has many forms, some are bold and some are passive, but both carry the same knowledge and skill. one may have an ego and agressiveness to fight and the other may have his body, brain, and chi.
Matreyia: You have got to be kidding me. "What felt like a concussion bomb" to 25 or 30 people? That's not even a real weapon. I call BS. Please name your bjj instructor, rank, and how long you've studied. This is shown by your obvious incomprehension of what either a single or double leg takedown are. You are quite literally BELOW any kind of punching range. If youd've said "I tried to clinch with him but he totally flipped out and lop saued me." That would've been at least plausible. And if you really took BJJ you'd know that the top position isn't always the best. I'll go first: Phil Cardella, white belt, 10 months WC vs Boxer right?>>> No. Gracie. G-R-A-C-I-E. As in Gracie jiujitsu. There are actually two different UFC clips of WCers vs MMAists. Both end with ground and pound from mount.
You're probably right, a concussion bomb is probably some sci-fi made up weapon, but the point was that whatever you would like to call it, he did decompress our lungs and knock all of us down without breaking a sweat. _____ 25 people? In less than a minute? I'm sorry but that's simply beyond any sort of belief. Perhaps some of that "Proof" stuff is just what the doctor ordered. Were you all lined up and standing ramrod straight like dominoes? <<< Again, you are correct, double and single leg take downs put me around the waiste area or sometimes even below. But this doesn't mean that the defender won't have the presence of mind to sink on his base and thereby adjust to my height. It's pretty pointless to ask you if you have ever fought a WC player and tried the takedowns, because even if you did, it still doesn't take into account the skill of your opponent. But really, would you like me to explain my understanding of how a take down should be executed step by step? Would that satisfy you? It surely would bore the pants off of some of the readers who don't practice BJJ. Let me know and I will post my understanding of the double and single take down in the next post. I don't mind at all.>>> Yes, I have fought a WC player and they are just as suceptible to them as anyone else. What I find unbelievable is that every time you shot there was a fist in your face. Seeing as the fist and face are far away when you shoot I find it odd. Are you sure you shot for a takedown? Understand that in the four or five times we've seen WCists fight this has never happened, even against other WCists. ______ I don't recall saying that the top position was the best in any of my posts. Strange that you would assert that sir. For me, since I am small, I let my opponents believe that they have the upper hand, then I just slink my way around here and there until I have a choke or armbar or triangle choke.>>> Well if he sunk his weight down on you, why didn't you pull guard? Well maybe my instructor was a charletan, but I took it for two years at the University of Houston from a Mr. Todd Y. (can't really reveal his name, not sure he'd approve of getting involved in any discussions). Todd's background is in Judo, with periodic visits to the Olympic Judo team to train (he really appreciates the US Judo Team talents) and I believe he trains with the BJJ and MMA groups in Houston--I don't know the exact names of the groups or people involved, but I wasn't really into asking about that stuff. I just wanted to train. So anyways, after training Todd, I went to train with a Mr. Torres Aponte's Ju Jutsu Academy in Houston. Man this guy was insanely great! I only trained with Torres for nearly a year though, too bad, cause I really enjoyed it although it was really rough.>>> And are you a white belt? (I don't much care, just as it's relevant to the discussion) Understand that i'm not calling you personally a ********er, but since you are claiming something that has so far never happened in the history of MMA vs wing chun, your claim must be thoroughly run through the ******** detector.
A bit of a sweeping statement? So you've seen 'four or five' WC practitioners fight. Hey, I once saw a programme about bjj..
25 people? In less than a minute? I'm sorry but that's simply beyond any sort of belief. Perhaps some of that "Proof" stuff is just what the doctor ordered. Were you all lined up and standing ramrod straight like dominoes?>>> Ain't it hard to believe though? i would have never believed it myself if I weren't there and if I didn't get hit myself. We were not lined up, we were in a circle. Your state of disbelief is the same as my state of disbelief before I experienced it. There is nothing I can say to change that until you experience it yourself. And how in the world can I provide proof? It sucks that there wasn't a dv camera around. But then again, Ken doesn't care who believes or doesn't, he just trains and trains and it certainly shows. Oh, and yes, all in less than one minute...without breaking a sweat. No tricks, no fakery like in some chi gung rigs. He just hit us pure and simple. I don't know how else to tell you. We were in a room in a circle and he hit us. Like I said, after this encounter, I realized my ignorance about martial arts. It was only due to this experience that I could see another level beyond the physical realm of the UFC/PRIDE fighters. Before this, I simple would not believe that those supermen could be defeated using anything but pure muscle power and aggression. >>Yes, I have fought a WC player and they are just as suceptible to them as anyone else. What I find unbelievable is that every time you shot there was a fist in your face. Seeing as the fist and face are far away when you shoot I find it odd. Are you sure you shot for a takedown? Understand that in the four or five times we've seen WCists fight this has never happened, even against other WCists. >>> And what I find so unbelievable is that, on the atomic level, each element exists because of a precise number of protons, electrons and neutrons attract, repel and rotate and precise orbits and gravitational signatures. But alas, sometimes electrons jump unexpectedly...oops, that shouldn't have happened!....Didn't I just mention that it is useless to ask or even talk about your experience with a WC player? There are all kinds of levels of practitioners with different talents, there is no way for me to determine your opponent's skills, which, in your case, obviously were not enough to handle you. And also, four, five, one hundred, a thousand...it doesn't matter how many times it has not been seen by you or other people, that simple doesn't mean that it can't happen. The simple explanation to me is that, at the time, I did not have the BJJ skills to deal with this guy. That doesn't say anything bad about BJJ, on the contrary, it has everything to do with my skills in BJJ. Maybe you would have whipped him because maybe you are better, who knows? My oppenent at the time was lucky to have fought and inferior BJJ fighter. You were lucky at the time to have fought an inferior Wing Chun fighter. Any questions? ______ I don't recall saying that the top position was the best in any of my posts. Strange that you would assert that sir. For me, since I am small, I let my opponents believe that they have the upper hand, then I just slink my way around here and there until I have a choke or armbar or triangle choke.>>> >>Well if he sunk his weight down on you, why didn't you pull guard?>> You might have misunderstood that statement above to mean that I was talking about the WC guy, but I wasn't talking about the WC guy in the statement above. I was talking about my time during BJJ training. When I fought bigger guys (they were all very big--the shortest was 6' as I recall), I just let them think they were in control, until there was an opportunity, then it was pretty easy to catch them off guard. And yes, all this was done in the guard position. How else could I pull it off? They were so strong that they could easily bench press my little body so the mount was not very effective on them. I love the guard position btw....In the guard, a little wiggle here, a little slink there and the dull minded opponent gets distracted, then the delicious bite of victory. All because of no fear, calm mind and patience. Of course, proprioception and understanding of levers and fulcrums saved my body from being smooshed like a grape many a time. >>And are you a white belt? (I don't much care, just as it's relevant to the discussion) >>> Haa, haa sir, I am worst than a white belt! I am a no belt! I don't know why, but those two schools and instructors didn't give a flip about colors or belts. They just wanted us to concentrate on training and mastering one technique after another. I would have liked to get a belt to show off though. I think that lots of people would be nicer to me if they saw it. Maybe they'd be scared because I had a physical representation of my supposed skills. >>Understand that i'm not calling you personally a ********er, but since you are claiming something that has so far never happened in the history of MMA vs wing chun, your claim must be thoroughly run through the >>> Now that is the most objective statement you have made in your response yet. excluding the pseudoexpletive of course. I hope you remember that I don't claim anything supernatural or that happened to someone else in some other place. Like I said before, it was just a recount of what happened to me in the past. An actual event that happened to me, not some other guy who knew some other guy etc... Suppose you posted an article of an experience you had with BJJ and how it worked wonders for you against other styles...oh I don't know, let's say against Wing Chun. And let's say that you told of your first hand experience with a seemingly magical BJJ master who could do incredible things with his skill. I would just read it and congratulate you on such a fortunate experience instead of getting bothered by something that has absolutely nothing to do with my life and training. I would also be happy that your BJJ is so successful in your life. End of story. You're happy, I'm happy what could be better? Now concerning that hypothetical article that you wrote about the BJJ master; it really doesn't matter if I believe you or not. I should just take it as it is, just the story of a man's personal experience. In the same way sir, it doesn't matter if you believe me or not. That story, that experience is not depend on anyone's belief. It will always have happened in my personal history. Sorry to have caused such aggrevation. This is my last reply to your posts. "The turtle said to the fish,'Fish, there are places called Land, where one can stand and walk if one had legs and feet. On this Land, one can also experience the Sky, which is blue and bright. And from this Land, one can come back into the Water.' The fish all looked at the turtle, laughed and swam away." We tame animals and the elements. But to tame our minds is the greatest achievement humans can make in any lifetime. For it is our mind that is the cause of our sorrows. That thing which we so fondly call "I" is that supreme obstical to our success and happiness in life. How can a thing that doesn't exist cause so much sorrow? It is because we are not aware of its emptiness.
