I've converted. No longer am I the sit on the fence, undecided, unwilling to take a stand in either direction agnostic I once was. I have seen the light. Yep, I'm a full blown atheist now. I had justified my previous position as an agnostic due to lack of evidence. Since I could see neither evidence for nor against a god, I had left this at being a 50/50 shot, like a scientist experimenting without predicting a conclusion. This I now realise was completely wrong. Atheism isn't a theory, it is a belief in the absence of religious theory. With no good proof for the existence of a god or gods, the default solution should have been atheism. Further, I have never held any 'belief' of a higher being. I've always held myself accountable for my own actions and never witnessed anything I could not reasonably justify as a naturally caused phenomenon. By choosing the path of the agnostic I am ignoring a lot of what I personally feel. There is a lot of talk about respect for people's religious views, even when arguing against a religious viewpoint most people (including myself) will start with something along the lines of 'While I respect your views.....'. The problem with that is that I have no respect for religious theory. I respect a persons right to believe in whatever they like but I can't honestly say I have respect for any theistic viewpoint. This feeling is compounded in cases where people are given special treatment because of religious belief or where a persons belief can negatively affect the lives of others. I don't see any need for religion in modern civilisation. We do not need it for explanations of our surroundings, for moral guidance or for any of the reasons usually paraded for religion. None of these are ever an exclusive service only provided by religions and when combined with the associated agendas that usually come as part of the package it's a definite disadvantage. My favourite scientific explanation, both in it's simplicity and wholeness of solution has been Darwin's theory of evolution. Since this is directly opposed to any theist view of a creator god and without any direct proof of religion, proof that does not work by attacking opposing theories or relying on the unknown to create a gap which is subsequently filled by the believers faith as the only valid explanation left, I cannot honestly stay an agnostic. As a disclaimer, these views will not affect my ability to moderate this forum. I am not intolerant to any specific religion, nor am I going to incite negative feelings towards anybody expressing there right to freedom of speech. These are my views and this is my personal expression of freedom of speech.
Just a guess, but you hold personal religious beliefs, thus your lack of serious argument replaced by a veiled attack on my personal beliefs?
Me? No, it was a joke. If you go and take a look at any of my past post here in the religion section it becomes obvious that I'm an atheist. I can pretend to be a theist if your looking for a debate though.
Apologies, I don't often browse the religion section. Too much of the time the threads can be broken down into a simplified "yes it is/no it isn't" loop and it gives me headaches trying to follow them!
i never thought i'd say this but.... you made me lol.... hehe congrats dude. personally i'm agnostic, but in the sense that i don't like religion, and refrain from believing any theory AT ALL, including atheism, so i won't be converting anytime soon, but if you really believe(not) then so be it .
That definitely seems to be a running theme in this dark corner of the forums. There may be a rather large amount of ten dollar words thrown around but I think your post highlights the bottom line as it were.
Nice words Coma i agree with you. I often think of it like this; Imagine the world, with no organised religions at all. Where people are raised to care for themselves, the earth and love and care for other people, without no reference to creed or a different religion (as there wouldnt be no religions). A world where we are taught the rights and wrong for common human decency and compassion instead of trying to please a god...a god which is better than yours as yours isnt the true god... I think the world would be a far better place than the mess we have now. And if people argue they need faith, go ahead have faith and believe in god. No problem with that. But for the rest of people, we need to rely on faith in our humanity, to look to ourselves to help us out. Until the big man in the sky comes out of his hiding place and sets the record strait for us all, if he's out there he should reveal himself from his cowardly like hiding place that keeps everyone guessing and killing.
Well put coma think you set it your opinion clearly and I would agree with pretty much everything you said. Except I'd add the disclaimer that religion does not always operate as a negative force and may perform social roles without necessarily strongly pushing an insipid agenda. A kid from a poor rural family in North Eastern Thailand being able to go to university because of the education and funding he received from various Buddhist temples and that kind of thing doesn't strike me as something that I can see any reason to condemn.
While it's true that religion isn't always negative, by the same token religion isn't always positive and these same social roles could just as easily be performed by an organisation with no religious ties. Unfortunately any action performed by a religious organisation, however altruistic and selfless, still advertises that religion as being beneficial to the average person. I'm not condemning the good works done by any religion, rather observing that the religious source of the good actions is unnecessary. I don't have many qualms with Buddhism interestingly, mostly because it is non-theistic and more of a personal development process, however I would still argue that there is no need for a religion for people to do this.
It is easy to say there is no need for religion in order for people to do these things, but religion is more than just a belief in an external God. Having the belief is sure to affect your values and the way you live your life. People are happy to talk about how great the world would be if organized religion was disbanded but I think they're overestimating the power of these positive ideals that will supposedly fill the void left by God. There is obviously a lot of greed and violence in the world wherever you look and I think a lot of it has nothing to do with religion. In fact I even think that without religion a lot of people lose a picture of what is a good life to live, so instead just follow the view society as to what success comprises which cannot be very fulfilling. I do believe that atheists can be moral and live good lives but I'd be wary in assuming that it necessarily follows from the loss of religion.
My decision has nothing at all to do with what I think the future would be like without religion. I don't think religion is the cause or solution to life's problems such as greed and violence, nor do I think that individuals would suddenly lose any notion of what it is to be good just because they don't have a religion to tell them what to do. Differentiating between the individual and people as a large scale group is important to understand this. Negative aspects to each person's humanity are just as much a part of it as the positive aspects, the appeal for me is in understanding why you should be good instead of just having faith that you should or worse that you only do it for a reward in the afterlife. As I see it, the chance that there will be a large scale movement away from religion to create a void where it once was is extremely slim. Unlike religion, the choice to become an atheist is most often a conscious one than one learned from a young age like the majority of religions. To make the choice to leave god in no way qualifies a person to a change in character; the idea that without religious guidance a person's moral code will suddenly change for the better or worse is based on the assumption that religion is what decides a person's character. To believe that people can only attain fulfillment for good deeds through religion is a sad viewpoint; for many the deed itself is fulfillment enough without the need to look to a deity for a spiritual pat on the back and a gold star. Of course atheists can lead moral and good lives, much the same as they can lead immoral bad lives. Following religion doesn't mean that an individual will suddenly become moral and good or that the teachings of the religion themselves are either moral or good.
That post wasn't directed specifically towards you, I'm not really sure why I quoted you at all. Some people seem to believe that if the world suddenly became exclusively atheist it would instantly turn into a perfect place where everyone would hold hands and realise that we're not so different after so lets make the most of this life while it lasts etc. The fact that being religious doesn't suddenly make you good or being atheist doesn't suddenly make you evil ignores the point that religion DOES affect your values and outlook on life.
Fair enough, I still think the concept of a 'suddenly atheist' world is completely academic. It can't be anything other than a shift in values over time and the idea that some kind of degradation in morality will inevitably accompany it is one that religions are very keen to promote, despite any evidence for it.
I am not saying that there would be a degradation of morality, but the gap left from religious values would have to be filled. Modern England seems pretty much atheist to me, but I wouldn't say that many particularly productive or strong values have filled that void.
You're talking as if everyone had productive and strong values before atheism became more widespread. Besides, most English people are supposedly Church of England Christians anyway. The gap supposedly left from religious values is easily filled with the application of reason. For example, stealing, killing or anything that hurts others without an objective justification is obviously wrong, and at the same time you wouldn't have the potential for homophobia or sexism that is sometimes incorporated as a by-product when religion is your moral basis.
If the values held today are not particularly productive or strong, yet you are not attributing any change to moral degradation then these values are the same as they were in a more religious time or stronger. You still maintain the point that religious values are only applicable with belief, that a lack of belief somehow makes these values void. As far as moral values are concerned there is no reason why they need to be inextricably linked to a religious belief to hold value.
I agree that many morals seem to have been lost here in England which I suppose does coincide with the decline in importance of Christianity in peoples lives. More and more children are been brought up here with little guidance at all, let alone religious guidance. That void needs to be filled, no doubt, and I think for many atheists it hasn’t. But to only think religion can guide the human race is very small minded. Over all I think it is a massive subject and there are many contributing factors to the increase in atheism in the UK and a rise in a seeming decline in society. To simply say it is or isn’t the decline in religious importance is wrong.
