The end of the day saw us with lots of bruises and bite marks. A bleeding nose for me. A blood-shot eye for the other guy and some scratches...but I didn't see anyone die and apart from the eye and nose, everything else did very little....the only thing I didn't try was a fish hook, because I know the ******* would have bitten my fingers! That what I like about my sensei, Flashlock...the day I started I asked him about something, and he said, "well try and hit me with it" and I got to see if he was going to put theories and claims to teh test or not. I haven't looked back since (unless of course when I'm tapping )
So you're the typical, assuming, cocky, out of shape Bujinkan practitioner "sparring" an MMA noob and going, "Hey I tapped him LIKE EVERYONE ELSE I GO UP AGAINST! MMA SUX"? Frankly your anime icon and your posts read LARPER. I love your typical logic, his "many deficiencies brought on by bad sport fighting habits". That statement speaks of your inability to make your taijutsu work in a sparring environment [because clearly you don't do it enough], and if you can't tap someone in a controlled environment do you really think you could subdue them in a real fight? You just sound like another Booj excuser. "Well if we tried our REAL fighting in a spar we'd hurt people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So we'll just do -ALL- our training at 1/8th speed and ASSUME it will work on a fully resistant opponent without ever testing it out, and PRAY TO GOD it works for us the one time our life depends on it!" Rubber Tanto man, keep up the good work. I'm loving your posts.
Now now...you'll never earn Tiger ARVN's "respect" post like that. I'm not doing anything but trying to view martial arts training from a logical and realistic viewpoint, thats all. I have trained with the same guy (style is not relevent in the point I am trying to make here) and I have submitted and been submitted on the same day by the same guy in different sessions. Messing around with one guy and basing the results of that one guy as your opinion on an entire mindset/ style / skill is dangerous. Period. Back on the original post, it is of my opinion that the guy in the video is no better than a 2nd kyu would be here in OZ. There just thought I'd get it back on topic. And give Ben something else to yell at me about!
MMA 'style self defense' as taught to the public and the police service http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/isrle25mb.wmv http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv http://www.isrmatrix.org/
I've only watched the first clip so far, but there's nothing there that I haven't seen in taijutsu, in fact it looks closer to taijutsu than MMA. But I could be wrong and I expect I am.
Yes, I belive that anything functional will have similarities to anything else that is also functional. what differs is the type of pressures undergone in the training of these skills in order to forge the spirit and body. Does anyone have any criticisms of this type of training?
The ability to deliver hard strikes/locks/throws should be the foundation and focal point to the majority of training, the actual tactics are then secondary. It is possable but only if their untrained 'numpties' and you have a significant skill/strength advantage.
Well, I watched the first clip as well, and I agree it looks like Taijutsu to me as well...but *REALLY BAD* Taijutsu!!! LOL! Reminds me of the "Jurassic Taijutsu" stuff of the 1980s, wherein people who didn't know what they were doing focused solely on "the technique" rather than controlling the kukan. Notice how everything is focused on "getting the lock" rather than controlling the spatial terrain and the balance of the opponent. Remember: Taijutsu is *NOT* about leverage!!! It is a very low level Taijutsu in my opinion, but is probably necessary for a lot of people. This type of movement can be learned in relatively short amount of time and is "effective" for those who work out every day and stay in top physical condition. Not very "functional" for *ANYONE ELSE* in the R3AL w0rLd, including over 50% of the population (i.e., women). If you train like this, you will never understand Hatsumi-sensei's budo, imo. Note: If you don't want to understand Hatsumi-sensei's budo, I could care less what you do in your practice. But this type of training will lead to a *TON* of bad habits that will take you years to purge *IF* you want to learn Hatsumi-sensei's art. Just my two cents. -ben
‘’Reminds me of the "Jurassic Taijutsu" stuff of the 1980s, wherein people who didn't know what they were doing focused solely on "the technique" rather than controlling the kukan. ‘’ Well the techniques are defined and work, the kukan is a bit more a principle that is hard to define. If your goal is to teach effective law enforcement defensive tactics I’d stick with tried and tested tecniques too. ‘’Notice how everything is focused on "getting the lock" rather than controlling the spatial terrain and the balance of the opponent. Remember: Taijutsu is *NOT* about leverage!!!’’ Really? So it doesn’t include leverage, how do many of the locks/chokes and throws work then, surely Tai-Jutsu isn’t able to break the laws of physics? And its looks rough because that’s what training looks like when done under pressure, when it start looking fluid and complete that’s when you add pressure so that it doesn’t come apart in real life ™ ‘’ It is a very low level Taijutsu in my opinion, but is probably necessary for a lot of people. This type of movement can be learned in relatively short amount of time and is "effective" for those who work out every day and stay in top physical condition. Not very "functional" for *ANYONE ELSE* in the R3AL w0rLd, including over 50% of the population (i.e., women). ‘’ However there was a women in the video’s in question, and she was quite good, it really quite insulting of you to say that women can’t train with intensity. If you want to play catch up by doing less training go ahead and tell me how that pans out for you ‘’ If you train like this, you will never understand Hatsumi-sensei's budo, imo. Note: If you don't want to understand Hatsumi-sensei's budo, I could care less what you do in your practice. But this type of training will lead to a *TON* of bad habits that will take you years to purge *IF* you want to learn Hatsumi-sensei's art. ‘’ I don’t train with these people, I only posted to show that there is more to modern (evolved) training then purely sportive MMA. YMMV
Yes, it's not great taijutsu, it just seemed more like taijutsu (or probably more accurately taihojutsu) than what is currently deemed MMA. Luckily for the folks in the clip it's the kind of stuff that will serve people quite well if they deal mainly with drunken headhunters and have backup. Unluckily for the rest of us there is still a lot of Jurassic taijutsu out there, it didn't all stay in the 80s. Getting to the point where one can tell the difference is the main thing.
Many who have been with the Bujinkan and have attained a very high level of Taijutsu have been training for decades (constant training, no breaks inbetween). This is the difference between the Bujinkan and everything else. As with all things that are higher level it takes more time, effort and money to achieve. There are also increased perseverance and endurance issues (you need a strong will to stay with one organization for that amount of time). Anyone can teach Taijutsu at a fundamental level and thats all well and good for people who want to learn self defense in a very short amount of time. The Bujinkan however is a perseverance of Budo. This is for people who are in for the long haul. This is why Bujinkan members get annoyed when people come to criticize the art and question things we have been studying for years when they themselves have only picked up a Martial Art in the last few months because of a *Octagon* fighting craze or some other fad. Don't you think that someone who has been training for 20 years had doubts about the system somewhere along the line? All BJK members i have met have had atleast a decade training in another Martial Art. Nagato was a champion Kick Boxer and also did Judo at a very high level. Ed Lomax also did Kick Boxing for over a decade. Hatsumi himself was a high level Judoka. BJK members have done everything out there and have always come back to train the way we train in the BJK. Why do you have to keep arguing about these silly points. You don't know! You don't have the experience! Many members in the BJK are in their 50s and 60s. They have lived through all the fads and crazes Bruce Lee, Karate etcetera. In 20 years BJJ is just going to be another faded MA with some hardcore members who could never let go and the rest will be bounding after the next big extreme dangerous exciting sports venue (My bets on MurderBall). And btw, we don't care what you think because i know you wouldn't have the resolve to stick with the same organization for a decade or two.
I watched the vids, and it looked pretty basic. I didn't see alot of the Taijutsu I have seen. It looked like a choregraphed B movie at times. Are you stating that a principle such as kukan, is not tried and tested?
I don't agree. If you add pressure and it isn't still fluid then you need to slow down, 'cause you're not ready yet to go that fast/rough/whatever...
Sure. Same with grunts in the Army. Keep it simple for a majority of people. But those who have a greater knowledge of movement, they will do better on the force than those who merely know a few "tried and tested" techniques. Nope, nothing of the sort. The laws of physics require two things for "leverage" to be a concern in a confrontation: (1) a fulcrum and (2) a base for a person to resist. All locks use a fulcrum. But if you remove the base of resistance (i.e., by floating people in the kukan), they cannot resist and thus no leverage is needed to "get the lock on." People who use leverage to "get" techniques on have already screwed up the "set up" and now are "working to make things work." It's a real waste of energy (thus the need to be in top physical strength to get these things to work) and is *MUCH* more dangerous for the individual. I didn't say anything about "women cannot train with intensity." Please watch your attributions and conclusions.... -ben
Im sorry, may I ask you to clarify your statement re women not having the strength? I do seem to off miss read you. Also how would you teach Bujinkan Style DT in a weekend for the" less advanced" artists. Also may I ask for a description on how management of space takes the place off leverage. Would not the base be your own body as you rotate around your spine or drop your own hips? Many thanks for your time.
