maybe old news but i found this quite disgusting.

Sorry if this takes us out on a tangent, but what are you talking about?

What "community"? A English-language-based martial arts community?

Gichin Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan karate, was one of the most respected martial artists of his time. Even Mas Oyama, a *KOREAN* in Japan and founder of Kyokushin Karate, garnered tremendous respect from the Japanese.

Neither of these major schools of karate have had "bad reputations" and so I question what your frame of reference is....

-ben

 

A corky that eats watermelon is still a corky.

(now I know why Takamatsu Sensei's name keeps getting messed with... ****)

 

I think he's on about Toda et al

 

Re-quoted for relevance. There are definitely more important things for people to worry about. For example...

Fitness...

Flexibility...

Victoria Beckam...

Kamae...

Strength... (and how not to use it)

PS: One of these is a crimson herring...

 

Yeah fitness is over rated

 

I remember some skeptics had doubts about Takamatsu Sensei being a real teacher or even if he was Hatsumi Sensei's teacher until Sensei produced the video footage a few years ago. I saw it at the Tai Kai in New Jersey and it was truely great. So that was debunked right there. Truth be told at some point someone will probably be able to pinpoint Toda Sensei's where abouts and at that point the next person will say but what about this insert anyone from part of the lineage and we will go through this again.

The reality is that thousands upon thousands of people have met and trained with Hatsumi Sensei and we are convinced that he is teaching us as his teacher taught him and that he is the real deal. That is the current reality. The other reality is that if you look at the well trained Budo Taijutsu practitioner's out there they are simply great martial artists themselves. That again say's alot about Hatsumi Sensei and his teaching in the lineage of Takamatsu Sensei.

 

Holy crap. This is almost eerie. I have been meaning to write the following for awhile now, and the day I am going to... you write a nearly identical post...

Ok.

On to mine. Hopefully this will help:

This is the jist of what is being said here:

FlashLock: I train in MMA and BJJ. Tell me about your family history.

Me: Hm. Ok. Not sure why you want to know... but... My Father told me his grandpa lived in this town. My grandpa died before I was born...
Anyway, my Great Grandfather met my Great GrandMother while standing in line at the bank at 23rd and Union. They hit it off right away and

FlashLock (interrupting): Bank at 23rd and Union?

Me: Yeah, I think so.

FlashLock: No. I don't think there is a bank at 23rd and Union.

Me: Oh? Really? Do you know what was there?

FlashLock: No. I just don't believe that a bank was there.

Me: Oh. Hm.

FlashLock: You see, if there isn't a bank at 23rd and Union, then your Great Grandpa didn't meet your Great Grandma ... so you and your family don't really exist.

Me (look of utter disbelief on face): Really, you don't think I exist?

FlashLock: Well maybe you *exist* - but you don't know anything about your family. Don't you want to know if that bank existed?

Me: well... I supose I would like to know... But honestly, I don't really care that much... I supose I could ask my dad about it.

Flashlock: Good now your eyes are opened.

Me (hours later): I asked my dad. He said my story was right.

Flashlock: He is just trying to trick you. He is either a liar or he is an idiot.

Me (utter disbelief again): What? Why do you say that?

FlashLock: I don't think the bank was there...

Me: Well - hm.

Flashlock: Until you can prove to me there was a bank on 23rd and Union, you don't really exist.

Me: wow... ok dude. I can show you pictures of me and my dad, and my dad with my grandpa, but there weren't cameras around when my great grandpa was around.

Flashlock: Exactly. No video, didn't happen.

Me: you being serious?

Flashlock: Yep. I want it proven. Until then - you don't exist.

....
...
..
.

That is the jist of this argument.

If you ask me to prove that Toda existed... I can't. And more to the point, I don't want to even look. If you do - great. Let me know what you find.

Either way - it proves nothing. FlashLock can hold his breath and pound the desk as much as he wants - but he can't prove that Toda didn't exist anymore than I can prove he did exist.

So until he finds a smoking gun - or we find video of Toda fighting Matt Hughes, neither side will be able to prove anything. We have a lot more indication that Toda existed than he has indication that Toda didn't. Not conclusive...

Anyway... just my take.

-Daniel

 

Good post

And therein lies the problem. You can prove something DOES exist but how do you prove something doesn't?

If you find evidence of it having existed, that may be proof of it's existence. If you don't find evidence of it having existed it's definitely proof that you haven't found any evidence, not that there is none or that whatever it is never existed.

We've probably all heard of cases where a suspect to a crime, where practically everyone is 100% sure of their guilt, escapes conviction due to lack of evidence. Not suggesting anyone's a criminal here but the point is the same.

 

Great take Picture quality

 

A truly rare laugh out loud moment. Thanks for that

 

Sigh...

If you claim Today existed, the burden of proof is on you to show that--I don't need to do anything but sit back and ask, "Where's the proof."

By your reasoning (and I use the term loosley) you need to "saddle up" and take a course on basic rhetoric.

 

And if you say that there is no proof that he existed, then all we need to do is sit back and ask for the proof that you even bothered to look.

Well....where is it?

You know where to go and who to ask if you really care about the matter. We have helped you as much as we can. It is time that you go to the folks that we pointed you to instead of proving Dan Weidman correct.

 

Since Hatsumi is pointing to his linneage (out of pride, to make money, or to make his system seem battle-tested over 100's of years) he must be questioned on it at every front, and he and his students need to welcome such scrutiny openly.

Brian, nothing was "debunked". What happened was Hatsumi proved he worked with Takamatsu. It's almost as if you're insinuating that because it was proved that Takamatsu trained Hatsumi, all further question of the linneage is invalid.

Why "probably"? Because you want it to be so? I'd say, "Probably not" and I'm correct--not because of any desire on the outcome on my part, but because when you make an assumption, it should be toward the skeptical.

Ah, poor babies, have to defend your linneage and "go through this again". If you didn't want to debate it, Hatsumi shouldn't have used it to give his art prestige it may not deserve.

No one is questioning that what Hatsumi is teaching is what Takamatsu taught him. Your point?

Excuse me, the only reality here is Hatsumi claimed his system is very old and battle-tested, yet he can't prove it because the linneage stops at Takamatsu (in terms of clear evidence). His effeciveness as a teacher, or of the art in general, has nothing to do toward proving an old linneage for his system.

If you believe Hatsumi (and posthumesly Takamatsu) about the linneage of your art, back it up or get ready to be questioned.

If the Gracies claimed a secret master from Katmandu taught them the hidden techniques of the ground, and it stretched back 350 years in actual battles, and they could trace it--wouldn't you question that?!??? Of course you would, and rightly so!

For me, hints of a diary and Takamatsu's word is not enough--it shouldn't be.

Hope you guys find Toda!

 

Well as far as I can tell today did exist. I got up, took a shower, and ate some breakfast. Then I had a rather odd adventure involving lots of unnecesary driving due to having missed an email. I could even send you the missed email . In any case I hope tomorrow exists too (a cute gal is coming over to sun bathe with me) .

Come on man. If you really care about the topic beyond what we are able to tell you, do the right thing. Either drop it, or ask people who have the answers. I won't right now because right now I'm interested in my instructors' *SKILL SETS*. How we spend our resources determines what we get.

 

Very funny (I accidentally typed "Today" instead of "Toda").

How poetic!

 

Al Bundy posted

Good post

Or as Sherlock Holmes put it so succinctly

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

Oh and before anyone asks me about Sherlock Holnes' Lineage, he's a fictional character.

Garth

 

ok, if you feel that way then you get the proof for us, as you can see on here no one is really that bothered apart from you, so you do it for us then, you get the proof you need to prove he wasnt real and come back to us, saves us a job and we can get on with what we like to do best, training!!

no one is really defending it, over and over people are trying to tell you they dont know and dont care but cant get it through you this skull, everyone is just amusing you so you continue to look like an ass.

ok, well sort it out then.

no one is looking!!

Anyone remeber that name D Weidman had for me? i think its now more apropriate for flashlock to carry that trophy!!

 

No. You are wrong.

Takamatsu sensei did not only have Toda sensei as a teacher. He also had two teachers that taught him Kukishinden ryu and Takagi ryu. Their origins and age are well known.

I can imagine how it might irk someone with your background. But please try to do at least a little research into the matter before you make such broad, incorrect statements.

 

but can you prove he was fictional or did he not exist at all??

 

Let me be VERY straight on this ... and again... SMALL WORDS.

I didn't claim Toda existed. Takamatsu did.

I have ALREADY told you I CAN'T prove Toda existed. So why are you asking me?

So, asshat (happy Greg?), you will have to either get on a plane and ask Hatsumi Sensei yourself (no guarentees he can prove it to your satisfaction either), or wait until one of us wants to.

Or just click on http://www.YesTodaReallyExistedAndHereIsTheProof.com

-Daniel