Too many martial arts these days are turning into McDojo?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Bubble99, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    I still can't get over the fact that 90% (ninety percent) of all martial arts being taught are ineffective for combat :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

    Why? What happened? Wouldn't people figure it out quite easily by competing in an mma type or no holds barred/vale tudo type fights? Seems straightforward to me....I mean, I've done boxing for just about 5 months and have basic understanding of a fight - like importance of protecting the head (keep hands up and chin down), having a good guard, footwork/pivot, how to block using arms, knockout, liver/stomach areas and how to punch, of course etc.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    First you need to define combat. Then you need to examine training methodology.
     
  3. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Bubbles. When you say it is no one's business if and what you train, it kind of discredits everything you say. This is a forum filled with martial artists of all skill sets and experince levels. You should have a basic understanding of what you are trying to discredit.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Best thing is to go and try these places Bubbles. Try them all. Any place worth their salt will give you a free class. If you don't respect anyone's opinion or point of view on this forum that is fine, but try and expand on your knowledge by trying these places out and see if you like them or not.

    Nothing online will tell you how these places do things. In the same way you can't judge a person by their online persona. Best to meet them in person. Good luck :)
     
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Yet you've failed to mention a number of basic aspects of a violent confrontation outside of the gym or dojo.

    ;)
     
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    ^ This.

    Just make sure that they know you are Jon Snow and know nothing.
     
  7. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    lol. Yeah, in UK the risk of being attacked is minuscule compared to say the USA or other 3rd world countries. TBH I wanted to learn boxing to defend myself but I find this is not the main focus of my training now. I just love punching pads and bags and shadow boxing :) Not just as stress relief but also for the satisfaction I get from expressing myself physically in that manner. My confidence levels have gone up and I'm a much calmer person as a result.
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  9. webcrest

    webcrest Valued Member

    HI
    My friend wanna send his kids to such kind of academy where they can get training, can you please suggest some thing related to this and also kindly tell the timing of your classes timing.
     
  10. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I don't know if it's 90%. Iaido doesn't even have a live opponent, but combat isn't the point of iai anymore.

    NHB isn't the best test of self-defence. MMA/NHB fights are duels, and duelling arts are different than SD-oriented arts, and have always been. People don't behave the same in the ring as they do outside of it. Any perusal of liveleak will show big haymakers and a lot of flailing and the like. You're not likely to be accosted by a boxer who's going to try to out-technique you.

    What MMA-style fighting does is it inoculates you to violence and to getting hit, while trying to implement your techniques under stress. It's very useful, but not the be-all end-all.

    In our club, the foundation of our combatives is bare-knuckle boxing to learn good body mechanics and to get used to being hit. If you can't land a jab, you can't land an eye strike. But I don't think that I'm going to end up in a London prize-fighting style match outside of a pub one day either.
     
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    The point of asking for your training isn't if you are an instructor or not. It is to get a frame of reference for all your judgments on other schools. You don't have to be an instructor, but yes, to be taken seriously you do have to have some experience. That is, be actually practicing martial arts and not a keyboard warrior.

    Like others mentioned, all too often MA boards get people espousing all sorts of stuff that is nonsense. And, frankly, anyone with any experience can see through the nonsense if they train.

    Frankly, you sound like someone who doesn't train. We were giving you an opportunity to let us know otherwise.

    Until you do say your training, I feel I am safe speaking for most of us in saying you really have no credibility.

    No one would care if you were a beginner if you weren't running off putting down other schools or martial artists with no sound basis.

    What is that Christian saying "judge not, lest ye be judged?" Karma man, karma is what is biting you.

    And again, yes, if you are going to be putting down kids putting in hard work training, I want to know if you train more hours than them or less- or at all.

    You opened yourself up to this with all your putting others down. And your refusal to answer the questions IS an answer in and of itself. One that does not reflect well on you.

    For one thing, no one who is proud of their school/ instructors training, hides it. I am proud to be a member of my school. I am honored to be in the lineage I learn from.

    And, just in case you ever come to San Diego, please note the clips Ben Gash showed of my school. We have kids and teens at my school. Since you made it clear you hate kids and have an attitude about them, I want you to know we have kids at my school. See, because your sort of attitude is not welcome where I train. We have a positive and supportive training environment. So I want you nowhere near my school until you change your attitude. So I hope knowing kids train at my school would steer you away from it.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  12. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    Do you mean permission?
    I'm not trying to be mean here, but English isn't my first language, so I admit, at times I still get a bit confused and your wording here is a... bit of a challenge.

    And in case you meant permission (obligation doesn't make much sense to me here): Of course not.
    No one said otherwise.

    But if you come here asking about schools and posting dozens of videos, people will give you their opinion.
    Whether you like it or not.

    Besides: If some people here actually take their time to watch all your videos (I stopped after a couple; that's why I don't say anything about those) you really should be a little more grateful.

    Maybe you should.
    I learned something by a roughly 9 year old girl.

    Seeing how you're acting up here and how you're bashing schools you never visited and only know from videos, that's a rather snotty response.

    I'm not mega-experienced myself.
    But sometimes it already works, of when one actually uses his head, before lashing out and talking stuff, you have no experience with.

    See above.
    That's a point most people get without needing to be told: Usually kids and adults train separate.

    Sure, there are schools where it's otherwise, but seriously?
    What would kids get out of it, if they could only train with grown-ups?
    Nothing either.

    It's still not about being an instructor or not.
    I'm not a "real" instructor either, I only help at kids classes.
    I'm way more of a student myself with not even three years experience.


    It's not about being an instructor or have experience of a dozen years, it's about how you talk about schools and MA.
    You are allowed to attend conversations either way.

    But I do admit, I will take an opinion of... let's say Hannibal more serious then one of you.
    And, yes, because he has lots of experience.

    That doesn't mean though that you're not allowed to add to a conversation, but you should add something more useful than bashing schools or at least not pretend to know exactly what you're talking about, when you're not.

    When I write in topics I usually write clear, that something is *my* experience or what *I* think about something.
    And in case people correct me, I say "thank you" and be grateful to learn something new.

    I don't go "Mimimi, everybody here is so mean!"


    I prefer schools, where you learn proper MA over schools who have a great homepage, but nothing to offer.

    You bash those kids non-stop, so I'd say you *do* have a problem with kids learning MAs.

    Pretty much your only point is: "There train kids, the school must be bad" after all.

    I honestly don't understand that paragraph.
    Can someone help me out here, please?

    What message?
    That classes are separate? Should go without saying, but I don't even know, if that's what Bubble means here.

    I don't understand the second part either.

    Bold from me.

    So I take it, we were right and you're still not training anything and your only base are videos?

    Well, surprise: That won't help you.

    That's why I'm saying for ages, you should go and actually train something.
    Not to be mean, but so you get an idea of the subject other then watching videos and being a keyboard warrior.

    What would I need a scapegoat for?
    I never said anything like that.

    *You* are the one claiming that nearly all schools are a McDjojo (because they have kids classes) without actually ever visiting one.

    Also I *never* said (actually I'm pretty sure *no one* ever said that), that you have to be instructor to be allowed to write here or have an opinion.
    Or that you have to have x years experience, before I take you seriously.

    But I *did* write that you should visit some schools, so you get a real impression on how MAs work, how school lessons work, how adult classes are, how kids classes are, ... what ever else there is.

    You judge by some videos, and that's not a good basis for judgement.
    And whether you like it or not: Having no real experience at all, doesn't make you a better judge of it!
    That's not how it works.

    Personal, I won't even consider for 90% of the videos to be able to judge them properly.
    But with some I see, when it's... weird or even rubbish.

    There was an Aikido-technique. Nice to look at.
    A lock with a jo.
    My teacher showed that technique to me, and I let go at some point of the jo, so he wouldn't lock my wrist. I didn't even think there, it was just the normal thing to do.
    That was the point where he started laughing, saying: "See? You're not allowed to let the jo go there, because then the lock doesn't work."
    (Not bashing Aikido. Aikido was part of his grading and he saw this technique on a demo, but said he would want something that at least *could* work for his grading.
    Besides: Sankyo broke my arm twice, so I know some parts of it can work ;) )

    And that, for example, is stuff you learn to see rather early, - when you actually train.
    Otherwise it's something most people won't notice.
    At least in my experience. They're "too busy" being "ooh, aah", because they're just not used to it.
    Like when I'd see someone pulling stunts on a BMX - there could be rubbish within, but it would look flashy and cool to me anyway.
     
  13. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    One of my teachers used to say; "Don't talk if you can't walk". It was his way of telling us to "do" before "commenting"

    Perhaps, the OP, like some others that "come and go" here, have trained on a "come and go" situation as well. Perhaps, they were "burned" by a school they had invested time in, and therefore bash everything else. (Likewise a certain member who trained in TKD up to a high level of rank, only to bash it after taking MMA)

    As I cant speak for everyone else, but every martial art or school has it pros and cons. No martial art or school is perfect. But, somewhere, there should be a start, and from that; one evolves, even if means going to another art "after a period of time". And then, after that period of time (as well as studying other arts), a person can really make a judgment of what "they" like or dislike

    A art should not be judged if it has kid classes, as many arts over the ages, HAS trained kids. It had to; in order to develop a person. It would seem logical to train the youth, as a fresh mind would be able to absorb than one old and tainted (not to say that people up in age cannot learn)
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  14. Ruark

    Ruark New Member

    Unfortunately, this is the reality for most modern martial arts schools. If you don't have the "Lil' Tigers" program, free after-school pickup service, 9 year old girls with 7th Degree Black Belts, etc. etc. etc. it's going to be very, very hard to stay in business, not to mention earning enough OVER that to support yourself and your wife and kids with a decent living. Even at best, you won't see many dojo owners living in 4-bedroom-bricks in the suburbs with stay-at-home moms, 3 kids and a nice car. Sad, but true.
     
  15. Ruark

    Ruark New Member

    Certainly the case with TKD and similar arts. It's not the art itself, though, as much as it is the way it's marketed, taught and practiced. When I practiced back in the late 60s in Texas, a black belt was respected and feared. Back then, a black belt MEANT something. It was common for BBs to get jobs as bodyguards or working security for night clubs and rock concerts. These guys were real badasses. Seriously, you have NO idea how tough they were. Many a tournament ended with the top competitors heading for the local hospital. Effective on the street? You absolutely did not ever, ever want to mess with these guys. EVER.

    I won't deny that modern competitors have some flashy moves, but that hardness, that toughness, just isn't there any more - it's just not marketable. I just don't see it. Today's kids grew up watching Chuck Norris and Jackie Chan and it's all about "high kicks" or they're not interested (and that means no income for the dojo). These days, you can be a fast, flashy black belt that couldn't break a straw, and go out and win a tournament.

    So again, it's not the art that's ineffective, it's the way the whole MA culture has changed over the last few decades.

    As an example, watch this video of Fred Wren vs. Jim Harrison in the 1968 US Open. Both competitors were seriously injured by the time it was over:
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyd0WT2IWJk"]Karate in the old days - YouTube[/ame]

    Compare that to this world championship match from a couple of years ago. (start at about 2:30):
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3nqICBmdOo"]2013 WTF World Taekwondo Championships Final | Male -87kg - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016

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